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Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

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Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#131

Post by dmix »

rexaliquid wrote: post #72
pmilla1606 wrote: post #36

I was expecting this to be mentioned somewhere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis

The Clathrate gun hypothesis and the thawing of the Arctic ecosystem are two of the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" that the US government investigates. These are possible scenarios for abrupt climate change (aka tipping points). The other two involve antarctic ice sheet instability and megadroughts in North America. http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2008/09/17/impacts-on-the-threshol...

Sounds very similar... Or at least variations of the same idea.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#133

Post by hutzlibu »

l1n wrote: post #101
matte_black wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managed population? Such as one child per couple policies? Immigration control? Such as closed borders and deportation of illegals?

How exactly would deportations help with overpopulation? That seems to be irrelevant - leading to changes in distribution, not numbers.

Easy, when you deport to a warzone and/or desert.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#134

Post by matte_black »

l1n wrote: post #101
matte_black wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Managed population? Such as one child per couple policies? Immigration control? Such as closed borders and deportation of illegals?

How exactly would deportations help with overpopulation? That seems to be irrelevant - leading to changes in distribution, not numbers.

I don't know. I didn't suggest immigration control. I assume the parent meant they would deport people to regions where survival is much less guaranteed.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#135

Post by fusiongyro »

mlloyd wrote: post #107
leggomylibro wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There could be anything underneath all the permafrost, including new biodiversity which we haven't catalogued yet. Hey, that was the plot of H.P. Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness ! http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/mm.aspx Spoilers: "...But we were not on a station platform. We were on the track ahead as the nightmare plastic column of foetid black iridescence oozed tightly onward through its…

God that is hard to read. The guy might be thought a genius but I got absolutely nothing from that passage save the penguins.

After reading Thomas Ligotti it's much harder for me to appreciate Lovecraft.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#136

Post by dredmorbius »

stickfigure wrote: post #54
ProAm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99.9% of all creatures to exist on earth are now extinct. [1] We're not special. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction

We're not special With big brains and tools, humans can live in a much broader set of environmental conditions than any other species. While it doesn't make us extinction-proof, it makes us pretty hardy. It is hard to imagine what would destroy all the ecological niches that humans could survive in. I would bet on the humans.

I've got a bunch of tardigrades on line 3 that would like a word.

Or whatever it is that passes for same.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#137

Post by stale2002 »

matte_black wrote: post #88
michaelmrose wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans prior to modern times haven't ever exceeded the carrying capacity of our environment and haven't had a die out that substantially reduced our population in modern times. Your thesis other than being fictional also is an emotional appeal to the concept that what is natural is desirable which is wholly unsound both on its face and because any die out sufficient to be effective is entirely likely to not only take…

Education is not the savior. There is a physical limit to resources here on this Earth. There is only so much food we can make, only so many jobs we can create. The only way to manage population is to control breeding. That is not a scaleable solution.

Yeah there is indeed a physical limit to human population.

And that physical limit is much closer to 100 billion people, than it is to 1 billion.

Population growth is already on the downward trend, and we are expected to reach population growth neutrality by 2040.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#138

Post by sulam »

dmix wrote: post #131
rexaliquid wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Clathrate gun hypothesis and the thawing of the Arctic ecosystem are two of the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" that the US government investigates. These are possible scenarios for abrupt climate change (aka tipping points). The other two involve antarctic ice sheet instability and megadroughts in North America. http://newscenter.lbl.gov/2008/09/17/impacts-on-the-threshol...

Sounds very similar... Or at least variations of the same idea.

It's definitely not the same problem. Clathrates are methane, for one thing, and the permafrost issue will cause CO2 emissions. Clathrates are in the water, permafrost is soil.

They are both associated with historically cold environments that are now warming up, but each has its own mechanism and likely impacts (clathrates may be worse, since methane is a much more powerful greenhouse gas, but the permafrost melting is going to be with us for 1000's of years whereas methane will be with us for "only" a decade. Also permafrost is likely to be a potent methane producer as well while it thaws out.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#139

Post by stale2002 »

jessaustin wrote: post #51
ceejayoz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Such events are necessary to keep human population under a manageable number. Is there any evidence for this assertion?

It's really more of a philosophical position, isn't it? That isn't to say it's correct, but what would "evidence" even mean in this context?

Well evidence would be something like "over time these countries have had reduced quality of life over the past decade, because of population growth".

But it seems like the opposite is true. Quality of life is still massively improving basically everywhere.

We are not running out of resources.

Re: Scientists In Alaska Find Mammoth Amounts Of Carbon In The Warming Permafrost

#140

Post by sulam »

skrowl wrote: post #22
jjoonathan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there credible models that suggest Earth will turn into Venus or something? It would take a hell of a lot more to end humanity than it would take to "merely" hurt/kill the most vulnerable segments of our population (which is what I thought the stakes were).

There is definitely no shortage of doomsday climate models. CREDIBLE models is a different story. Look back at ones from 20+ years ago to see what they predicted would be happening by now. It's pretty funny actually.

I don't need models when I have the historical record. The historical record says mean sea level is going to be hundreds of _meters_ above current levels in the not-too-distant future.
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