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Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

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Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#61

Post by psyc »

rubicon33 wrote: post #38
nexus2045 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I fe…

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situati…

"Clinical depression" means you've been diagnosed by a qualified medical doctor. The litmus test is whether you're experiencing symptoms that meet the criteria. Patients receive comparable treatment, whether the underlying causes are presumed to be situational or organic. The many psychiatrists I've seen acknowledge biological, psychological, and social causes. Everything I've read on the subject indicates that most psychiatrists do.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#62

Post by [deleted] »

jackhack wrote: post #6
bhouston wrote: post #3

I think it could.... It is the "do not keep doing the same thing if it isn't working". Of course we are in a novel high stress environment so I think it can be triggered erroneously or we just need to now live through really shitty situations at work, etc. I wonder if antidepressants in some cases encourage an individual to stick out/survive a situation they should really be escaping from?

I think you're onto it. If an organism is not successful in whatever circumstance, then it is for the benefit of the herd (and species) that the individual drop out and not propagate its genes further. It is a braking mechanism. A psychic-emotional watchdog.

[deleted]

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#63

Post by ekr »

meesterdude wrote: post #37
DoreenMichele wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that: people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.

> There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"

The fact that conditions such as sleep apnea (insufficient nocturnal brain oxygenation) lead to depression and anxiety in a significant number of cases illustrates that depression isn't always an indicative of a social problem. It can also be a strictly biochemical issue (there are a lot of things that affect neurotransmitter efficiency for instance).

(edited)

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#64

Post by dragonwriter »

ekr wrote: post #63
meesterdude wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"

The fact that conditions such as sleep apnea (insufficient nocturnal brain oxygenation) lead to depression and anxiety in a significant number of cases illustrates that depression isn't always an indicative of a social problem. It can also be a strictly biochemical issue (there are a lot of things that affect neurotransmitter efficiency for instance). (edited)

> It can also be a biochemical issue

Presumably, it's always a biochemical issue, though sometimes the biochemical state may be triggered by events in the social context.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#65

Post by DoreenMichele »

dragonwriter wrote: post #64
ekr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that conditions such as sleep apnea (insufficient nocturnal brain oxygenation) lead to depression and anxiety in a significant number of cases illustrates that depression isn't always an indicative of a social problem. It can also be a strictly biochemical issue (there are a lot of things that affect neurotransmitter efficiency for instance). (edited)

> It can also be a biochemical issue Presumably, it's always a biochemical issue, though sometimes the biochemical state may be triggered by events in the social context.

The distinction I am trying to make is that brain chemistry can apparently be wonky and resistant to change in the absence of triggering life events.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#66

Post by rubicon33 »

psyc wrote: post #61
rubicon33 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situati…

"Clinical depression" means you've been diagnosed by a qualified medical doctor. The litmus test is whether you're experiencing symptoms that meet the criteria. Patients receive comparable treatment, whether the underlying causes are presumed to be situational or organic. The many psychiatrists I've seen acknowledge biological, psychological, and social causes. Everything I've read on the subject indicates that most…

Perhaps then, my use of "clinical" is in error. I should say something more like, "treatment resistant".

For god sakes, if you smoke a pack a day, don't have a job, and haven't left the house for 2 weeks... I'd sure bet you qualify as being "depressed" in the literal sense. I'm more interested in the individual who fixes those things, and yet, still wants to die.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#67

Post by pron »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #56
pron wrote: post #40

Evolutionary psychology reminds me of religious sermons. The axiomatic assumption is that everything happens for a purpose and the cause is always evolution (or God) [1], and so, if something happens it must have a purpose. All that's needed is to interpret reality to uncover it. If something good happens it's because the purpose is to reward us, and if bad something happens, it's because the purpose is to teach us.…

No, you don't actually need any such assumption. We often use that language, but that isn't really what evolution is about. Evolution is about surviving the winnowing. Strategies that create high survival rates tend to propagate. Proposing a "purpose" for the strategy is just a means to try to understand the mechanism that causes them to foster higher survival rates and thereby propogate.

That is not at all what I meant. What I meant was that there is no reason whatsoever to presuppose that every existing phenotypical quality is adaptive.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#68

Post by DoreenMichele »

pron wrote: post #67
DoreenMichele wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't actually need any such assumption. We often use that language, but that isn't really what evolution is about. Evolution is about surviving the winnowing. Strategies that create high survival rates tend to propagate. Proposing a "purpose" for the strategy is just a means to try to understand the mechanism that causes them to foster higher survival rates and thereby propogate.

That is not at all what I meant. What I meant was that there is no reason whatsoever to presuppose that every existing phenotypical quality is adaptive.

The article is simply asking, essentially, "Since depression is so common, what if it is adaptive? What if there are circumstances under which depression actually improves your odds of survival, even though that seems counter-intuitive?"

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#69

Post by ZenoArrow »

rubicon33 wrote: post #55
ZenoArrow wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's…

To clarify my point... Exercise, good sleep, healthy diet, a social life, and a career, are some pre-requisites before you get to start talking about being CLINICALLY depressed. Situationally depressed, sure. But I'm making a distinction between someone who is depressed because they aren't meeting some basic needs (of which exercise is one), and the type of depression that persists DESPITE meeting these basic needs.…

> "Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication)."

If a clinically depressed person tries both medication and exercise, and finds exercise helps them more, does that bother you? Are you suggesting that they can't have been clinically depressed?

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#70

Post by wolco »

lisper wrote: post #51
danharaj wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's…

I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.

But it can buy things that help make a healthier lifestyle like foods with real value.
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