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Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

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Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#31

Post by psyc »

vinay427 wrote: post #23
danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you please rephrase or elaborate on this? I'm not sure if I interpreted it correctly. > What I'm saying is that we paper over the contradictions of the illusion of self determination peddled to us in rich Western societies by making depression seem like a personal, idiopathic problem.

I think I can elaborate on how this usually works in my own life. The conditions that allow you to meet your various needs tend to be high-friction to get into, sticky once in them, and prone to ending abruptly. So, if I am in a situation where I have a job, a relationship, friends, and hobbies, then I have more than enough energy to maintain them.

But when a chapter of my life comes to an end, it's like a game of musical chairs. And I'm just a little bit slow to find a seat. This slowness or non-resourcefulness in securing my next seat doesn't come anywhere near the symptoms of major depression. Suppose there's a layoff at work. I'm just a bit slower than others to catch on that I need to find another job. Just a bit less likely to talk to people and chase down opportunities. So I stay unemployed longer, along with the other compounded problems that can cause. After a long time not having my needs met, I get depressed, and eventually I'll be diagnosed with major depression and probably hospitalized.

This is perhaps subtle, but I don't believe I'm especially prone to depression per se. When I'm in a stable life situation, I'm very positive, optimistic, and industrious. I seem to have it all together, and I do. What I'm prone to is being a little bit passive, and fairly introverted. That's not depression, and it doesn't cause any big problems if I'm only maintaining a full life.

But jobs and romantic relationships can end abruptly. And with me it's always one or the other, and often both, that puts me in a situation where I have to act, be assertive, and secure that next seat. And sometimes I have adequate initiative to do that, and it's fine. If I don't though, one of these two things (job or romantic relationship ending suddenly) turns out to be the beginning of a slide. It's usually at least a year after the event that I start having symptoms, and by that time, 4 times out of 5 I'll wind up hospitalized.

Obviously this is just one person's life, one person's experience with depression, and their own interpretation of the mechanisms.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#33

Post by dschuetz »

Depression and mania as its counterpart are states of the psyche out of emotional balance. Those are emotional struggles which need to be overcome by their bearers. Clinical depression based on endocrine imbalances does count as well, as it has the same impact as temporal depression. Sometimes the struggles are so hard that at times it may seem easier just to give up. If you just let those states continue to persist without any countermeasures you'll never learn how to deal with them as they continue to wreak havoc to your perceptive and reflective cognitive abilities, which work best in emotional equilibrium by the way.

So, basically saying that depression in itself might have some evolutionary purpose seems a bit far fetched.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#34

Post by nexus2045 »

danharaj wrote: post #19
doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I feel monitored and treated like a idiotic teenager still, despite turning 29 this year) UNLESS I move to work in the States (paid more, have excuse to rent my own place). If it sounds entitled that I am complaining about free rent, it probably is, but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#35

Post by bpchaps »

k__ wrote: post #25
danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I've had on-and-off severe depression for most of my life, both during times of high disposable income and times with very limited cash. Depression with disposable income is much, much more manageable. Maslow's hierarchy is kind of a bitch.

If you don't mind, what sort of patients does she work with?

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#36

Post by danharaj »

nexus2045 wrote: post #34
danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I fe…

> So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things?

The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me.

Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's the blunt truth. Most of us, even us relatively well off programmers are subordinated to the system that gives us money. My mental health would be in even better shape if I didn't have to consign 40 hours of my life per week to work.

If one needed that time to get their life in order to cure their depression, it would be impossible unless they were rich, right? The way we talk about depression often ignores this crucial point.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#37

Post by meesterdude »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #28
k__ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me live anywhere and choose to live in the way I need to live in order to be happy." My girlfriend works in a psychiartry for people with depression and she told me that it has nothing todo with success.

There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that: people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.

> There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical.

This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#38

Post by rubicon33 »

nexus2045 wrote: post #34
danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I fe…

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression:

I just need X and then I won't be depressed!

That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situation in life was crappy.

The litmus test for depression is when, even after obtaining X, your baseline resets to a depressed state as you were before you had X. So while obtaining X might bring some relief, you always return to a baseline happiness that is significantly lower than the average person.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#39

Post by DoreenMichele »

meesterdude wrote: post #37
DoreenMichele wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. The parent acknowledged that: people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors Folks who have brain wonkiness can't fix it by fixing other life problems. But people who are depressed because their life sucks absolutely can see their mood improve by fixing other problems.

> There are two general sources of depression: environmental and biochemical. This is not at all what the field of psychology has identified as the "general sources"

So enlighten me. What does psychology have to say about it?

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#40

Post by pron »

Evolutionary psychology reminds me of religious sermons. The axiomatic assumption is that everything happens for a purpose and the cause is always evolution (or God) [1], and so, if something happens it must have a purpose. All that's needed is to interpret reality to uncover it. If something good happens it's because the purpose is to reward us, and if bad something happens, it's because the purpose is to teach us. Or something. Religion, of course, is far superior, because it doesn't pretend to be science.

[1]: Nothing we know about biology in general and evolution in particular entails that assumption (except in specific circumstances where the mechanism is understood, but if the mechanism is understood the interpretation is unnecessary), hence it's axiomatic.

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