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Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

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Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#51

Post by lisper »

danharaj wrote: post #36
nexus2045 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I fe…

> So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? The job didn't cure my depression but the money let me do the things I need to do to be happy. I stayed with my parents for a bit when I got my first programming job. Moving out was one major positive thing for me. Money doesn't make you happy, but you only really have power over your life when you have money. That's…

I can vouch for this. Money is not sufficient, and it might not be strictly necessary, but it's a huge lever.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#52

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

nexus2045 wrote: post #34
danharaj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a loop in an existence where survival is assured, and meaning becomes the main spectre psychologically. Most people who suffer from depression because of environmental factors have no real substantial changes they can make to their life that would resolve the root issue of their depression. I could "fix" my depression once I had an independent high paying job that let me li…

Could you explain what you mean, particularly the last part? So you're saying having that independent high paying job, in your experience, really helped things? For me, that's almost my only "hope" of a better future - I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense, and I think that causes me a bit of depression because I feel totally out of control of my situation (I fe…

> I'm involuntarily living with my parents due to renting in my city not making financial sense

It could be argued that you are voluntarily living with your parents because renting doesn't make financial sense.

It's a trade-off.

If you felt strongly enough about it you might potentially say something like "despite the financial trade-off being in favour of living with my parents, I find doing so makes me feel controlled and depressed, so I choose to [rent a room in a share-house / whatever other option might be available."

I know, for me, my cyclic depression and suicidal ideation didn't lift until I started taking 1000+mg of magnesium as magnesium amino acid chelate and 8,000IU of vitamin D per day, despite having a relatively high-paying job and owning a (mortgaged) house.

> but from my point of view I've barely grown up as an adult because the environment at home has never changed.

With all the best of intentions and kindness: as an adult, it's probably up to you* to change that.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#53

Post by [deleted] »

pron wrote: post #40

Evolutionary psychology reminds me of religious sermons. The axiomatic assumption is that everything happens for a purpose and the cause is always evolution (or God) [1], and so, if something happens it must have a purpose. All that's needed is to interpret reality to uncover it. If something good happens it's because the purpose is to reward us, and if bad something happens, it's because the purpose is to teach us.…

[deleted]

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#54

Post by Terr_ »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #22
doctorcroc wrote: post #8

Tangential, but this psychologist argues that depression evolved as a behavioral shutdown mechanism to prevent humans from over-investing in tactics or behaviors that did not yield any benefit (from a dopaminergic standpoint) -- https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/theory-knowledge/201604... . The reasoning is that we conserve energy by not pursuing "dead-ends". Naturally, this evolutionary mechanism is thrown for a…

There seem to be two general responses to problems: anger or depression. Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good. But if your current crappy situation is the least worst answer you can come up with, depression is the lesser evil. You shouldn't rock the boat if there is zero upside and a lot of downside to doing so.

> Righteous anger properly channeled can be a force for good.

There's a Terry Pratchett quote which I like on this subject:

> Granny Weatherwax was often angry. She considered it one of her strong points. Genuine anger was one of the world's greatest creative forces. But you had to learn how to control it. That didn't mean you let it trickle away. It meant you dammed it, carefully, let it develop a working head, let it drown whole valleys of the mind and then, just when the whole structure was about to collapse, opened a tiny pipeline at the base and let the iron-hard stream of wrath power the turbines of revenge.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#55

Post by rubicon33 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #46
rubicon33 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situati…

> "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's…

To clarify my point... Exercise, good sleep, healthy diet, a social life, and a career, are some pre-requisites before you get to start talking about being CLINICALLY depressed. Situationally depressed, sure. But I'm making a distinction between someone who is depressed because they aren't meeting some basic needs (of which exercise is one), and the type of depression that persists DESPITE meeting these basic needs.

By no means am I saying that a clinically depressed individual "cant be helped". There's nothing comforting about that thought at all. Quite the contrary, those types of people DO exist and have found relief visa vi standard modes of care (CBT, and medication).

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#56

Post by DoreenMichele »

pron wrote: post #40

Evolutionary psychology reminds me of religious sermons. The axiomatic assumption is that everything happens for a purpose and the cause is always evolution (or God) [1], and so, if something happens it must have a purpose. All that's needed is to interpret reality to uncover it. If something good happens it's because the purpose is to reward us, and if bad something happens, it's because the purpose is to teach us.…

No, you don't actually need any such assumption. We often use that language, but that isn't really what evolution is about.

Evolution is about surviving the winnowing. Strategies that create high survival rates tend to propagate. Proposing a "purpose" for the strategy is just a means to try to understand the mechanism that causes them to foster higher survival rates and thereby propogate.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#57

Post by trgv »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #46
rubicon33 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what people who don't have depression, constantly think about depression: I just need X and then I won't be depressed! That's a NORMAL psychological process (not having something important, feeling negative about it). If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with. You're a human being who was unhappy that their situati…

> "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's…

I imagine there are "people diagnosed with clinically depression" who could cure their depression by exercising and/or changing their life in some way.

However, I know a couple people who do not fall into that bucket. Both of these people suffer bouts of totally debilitating depression. They are both respected within their communities, smart, successful, and have full lives. Both of them get a lot of exercise, both are extremely fit and have been their whole lives.

In my opinion, the way to look at this kind of depression is as a chemical imbalance. Theorizing that there's some missing piece in their lives seems ridiculous to me. And yes, antidepressants work.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#59

Post by laretluval »

pron wrote: post #40

Evolutionary psychology reminds me of religious sermons. The axiomatic assumption is that everything happens for a purpose and the cause is always evolution (or God) [1], and so, if something happens it must have a purpose. All that's needed is to interpret reality to uncover it. If something good happens it's because the purpose is to reward us, and if bad something happens, it's because the purpose is to teach us.…

The language about "purposes" in evolution is metaphorical, and I'd argue no more metaphorical than in any other setting. Good luck defining the notion of a purpose in terms of particle physics, and yet it's clearly a useful notion in a theory of human behavior.

Re: Does Depression Have an Evolutionary Purpose? (2017)

#60

Post by psyc »

trgv wrote: post #57
ZenoArrow wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If obtaining X (career, significant relationship, etc.) does cure your "depression" then you didn't have clinical depression to begin with." Depends. There's a decent amount of evidence that exercise can help reduce episodes of depression, even clinical depression. If obtaining X is obtaining a healthier body, then there's a decent chance you can help to lift yourself out of a funk by getting it. However, there's…

I imagine there are "people diagnosed with clinically depression" who could cure their depression by exercising and/or changing their life in some way. However, I know a couple people who do not fall into that bucket. Both of these people suffer bouts of totally debilitating depression. They are both respected within their communities, smart, successful, and have full lives. Both of them get a lot of exercise, both a…

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-illness-metaphor...
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