Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service? • Hacker News Board

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#41

Post by alsetmusic » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:17 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #31

TeMPOraL wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, most of that isn't dystopian. I can sort of buy people feeling orwellian about Alexa or Google Assistant - but as it is now, most IoT is just random startups hoping that if they abuse some users through a SaaS, they'll get to be the next Google. It never works out, and we're left with tons of electronic junk, that shouldn't even exist in the first place.

>most of that isn't dystopian Remember that time a city in CA sent Cointelpro-esqe letters to the registered owner for vehicles their plate readers recorded going down a particular street? There's nothing that prevents similar bad behavior from HOAs or cities/towns that have access to other data sets. I don't want a HOA sending me brochures about recycling because my smart house reports that my ratio of trash to recy…

> Remember that time a city in CA sent Cointelpro-esqe letters to the registered owner for vehicles their plate readers recorded going down a particular street?

No, I don’t. I’m guessing others might not, as well. Can you please supply a link?

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#42

Post by dylan604 » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

TheRealEdAbbey wrote: post #33

toss1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yup, I just want a thermostat that I can remotely access -directly- and not through someone else's server. Just keep track of my IP addr myself, and yes if the ISP swaps it out for another I'll have to update it when I get there again... blah, blah, blah, yes' it'd be fine with me. Yet I cannot fine one. Every single 'smart' thermostat has some corporate service I have to negotiate through for access, and of course i…

The problem is there isn't really much of a market for something like that. Sure, you can have detailed documentation on such a product that explains how it's functioning, why it might drop out when your ip changes, etc., but who is going to understand that? People like you and me, yes, but we're a pretty small market. In order for there to be a reasonable audience for a product, you have to target the least knowledg…

Is there a way to bundle a dynamic DNS offering that would make the changing of an IP address invisible to the home user. It's 2018, so I'm wondering if setting this up has become easier than it has in the past. Just trying to think of something to keep the idea viable.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#43

Post by alsetmusic » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

TheRealEdAbbey wrote: post #33

toss1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yup, I just want a thermostat that I can remotely access -directly- and not through someone else's server. Just keep track of my IP addr myself, and yes if the ISP swaps it out for another I'll have to update it when I get there again... blah, blah, blah, yes' it'd be fine with me. Yet I cannot fine one. Every single 'smart' thermostat has some corporate service I have to negotiate through for access, and of course i…

The problem is there isn't really much of a market for something like that. Sure, you can have detailed documentation on such a product that explains how it's functioning, why it might drop out when your ip changes, etc., but who is going to understand that? People like you and me, yes, but we're a pretty small market. In order for there to be a reasonable audience for a product, you have to target the least knowledg…

> The problem is there isn't really much of a market for something like that. Sure, you can have detailed documentation on such a product that explains how it's functioning, why it might drop out when your ip changes, etc., but who is going to understand that? People like you and me, yes, but we're a pretty small market.

I understand why this is not available as a standalone product. The window is probably too small to warrant it. I don’t understand why no company appears to offer it as an option to a product that otherwise “just works.”

Sure, it would require additional investment on the part of the manufacturer to include an “expert-mode” toggle that lets the user make their own decisions, but a market exists for people who want that. Money is being left on the table.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#44

Post by dylan604 » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:31 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #23

userbinator wrote: post #10

It seems almost a given that whenever the term "smart" is applied to anything, it's something that tries to monitor, monetise, or otherwise resist your attempts at controlling it --- instead, it attempts to control you . There's enough dystopian science fiction out there that the only thing I think when I hear "smart" is "No thanks."

That's how I feel about smart house stuff. I love my stupid thermostat. It just does its job. Others have added house temperature to the growing list of things in their mind on a regular basis because they have an app or emails or notifications. I set it once and haven't thought about it in years. I'm not saying it's universally bad. Getting a notification that your front door has been open for more than a minute sou…

I'm almost in total agreement, except for the fact that I have a fairly flexible work schedule. Using a "dumb" programmable thermostat is nice for someone with a fixed schedule/routine. The only thing that attracts me to a remote accessible thermostat is that I can remotely adjust to the new value as I'm walking out the door from work. In the 10-15 minutes it takes to get home, the temp should be closer to where I want it. However, not enough to make me want it to managed via 3rd party company.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#45

Post by imgabe » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #21

TeMPOraL wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding "smart devices" and IoT, honestly, I don't qualify it as dystopian . To me, it's just pathetic . A "smart", unnecessarily Internet-connected kettle or lightbulb or juicer isn't going to usher the second coming of fascism to the Western world. Even data breaches connected to those devices aren't going to have any meaningful impact on an average person's life. But it's sad, because it's wasteful. It's ugly. I…

> A "smart", unnecessarily Internet-connected kettle or lightbulb or juicer isn't going to usher the second coming of fascism to the Western world. Each individual one isn't, but in aggregate they start transferring more and more control over your daily activities to faceless corporations thousands of miles away. That is dystopian.

In what way is control of your daily activities transferred away by a smart kettle? Is it not going to boil the water when I want to boil the water? If it doesn't, I'll throw it away and get a regular kettle. That's pretty much the only daily activity my kettle is involved in and no amount of Internet connection is going to remove my control of it.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#46

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

SEJeff wrote: post #20

When it comes to "Smart Cities" in the US at least, Chicago is leading the pack: http://arrayofthings.github.io/

Chicago keeps trying to be super-technology-world, but it doesn't always work.

More than a decade ago, Google promised to bring free wi-fi to the entire city. The idea was to put an AP on every light pole. Lots of press. Lots of TV interviews. No internet.

It never occurred to Google that when the light on a light pole goes off, the power to the entire pole is turned off. And not just that pole, but every other pole it's connected to. Big G was counting on powering the AP's off of the light circuit, which is actually turned off miles away. Simple, reliable, century-old "dumb" technology.

But Chicago keeps plugging along. There are victories, too. But the failures are more fun.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#47

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:41 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #26

TeMPOraL wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding "smart devices" and IoT, honestly, I don't qualify it as dystopian . To me, it's just pathetic . A "smart", unnecessarily Internet-connected kettle or lightbulb or juicer isn't going to usher the second coming of fascism to the Western world. Even data breaches connected to those devices aren't going to have any meaningful impact on an average person's life. But it's sad, because it's wasteful. It's ugly. I…

yup, I just want a thermostat that I can remotely access -directly- and not through someone else's server. Just keep track of my IP addr myself, and yes if the ISP swaps it out for another I'll have to update it when I get there again... blah, blah, blah, yes' it'd be fine with me. Yet I cannot fine one. Every single 'smart' thermostat has some corporate service I have to negotiate through for access, and of course i…

[deleted]

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#48

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

TheRealEdAbbey wrote: post #33

toss1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yup, I just want a thermostat that I can remotely access -directly- and not through someone else's server. Just keep track of my IP addr myself, and yes if the ISP swaps it out for another I'll have to update it when I get there again... blah, blah, blah, yes' it'd be fine with me. Yet I cannot fine one. Every single 'smart' thermostat has some corporate service I have to negotiate through for access, and of course i…

The problem is there isn't really much of a market for something like that. Sure, you can have detailed documentation on such a product that explains how it's functioning, why it might drop out when your ip changes, etc., but who is going to understand that? People like you and me, yes, but we're a pretty small market. In order for there to be a reasonable audience for a product, you have to target the least knowledg…

> The problem is there isn't really much of a market for something like that.

These days, the internet gives you access to several billion people. Even a very niche market can translate into a large customer base and a nice, profitable business.

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#49

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #39

toss1 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yup, I just want a thermostat that I can remotely access -directly- and not through someone else's server. Just keep track of my IP addr myself, and yes if the ISP swaps it out for another I'll have to update it when I get there again... blah, blah, blah, yes' it'd be fine with me. Yet I cannot fine one. Every single 'smart' thermostat has some corporate service I have to negotiate through for access, and of course i…

Why don't you just turn the damn thing up when you get home?

I agree. It takes about 10 min to warm up the house, no problem.

Remote access is so I can turn it down remotely because I forgot to when I left :-)

Re: Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?

#50

Post by theamk » Tue, Jan 23, 2018, 8:55 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #32

jstanley wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's relatively easy to build one yourself. I did it, it works great. I used 2 ESP8266's - one in the temperature sensing and control box in my office, and one controlling a relay inside the boiler. When it's too hot the relay is opened to switch the boiler off, when it's too cold the relay is closed to switch the boiler on.

The question is, do you trust your own handiwork to the extent you're not worried it'll malfunction and burn your house down, or freeze your pipes during winter? Personally, I'm reluctant to have electronics I built myself connected to mains and running unsupervised for longer periods of time.

For projects like that, you don't connect anything to the mains at all. Specifically:

- At least in US, thermostats control is low-voltage (24 V AC), and come from low-power transformer which will just stop working on overload (ask me how I know :) ), so there is no electrical fire danger

- You never plug anything into the AC outlet directly -- you always use AC/DC adapters (and not the ones bought on ebay for minimum price, too)

- To prevent freeze hazard, you also leave original thermostat hooked up, but set it to really low temperature (10C/50F).

- Overheating house is possible, and you definitely need to consider this in your software (for example, require periodic control messages to keep your boiler on). However, I do not think it is an actual fire hazard -- likely, there are hardware safeties in your heater to prevent that. Still, if you are worried about this, you can install a second thermostat in series with your relay and set it to max temperature you ever want.