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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

lkml.iu.edu

631–640 of 702 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#631
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this be bad faith? Assume no fix is available, at least for existing processors, that doesn't result in reduced performance. What should Intel do? - Force users to take the performance hit? - Let users decide whether to take the performance hit in exchange for security?

The processor's security features should perform as described - anything less is a very nasty surprise waiting for users. Intel could allow users to opt-in to insecure behaviour for performance, but insecurity absolutely must be opt-in rather than opt-out.

"The processor should perform as described - anything less is a very nasty surprise waiting for users. Intel could allow users to opt-in to less performant behaviour for security, but bad performance absolutely must be opt-in rather than opt-out."

Take away: it all depends on the users preferences. I am with you, in most cases, it should be about security, but I guess there are legitimate use-cases for the opposite as well.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#632
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we're just to take his word for it? Other than profanity what I read had no specifics, just jerky complaining. By a guy who is arguably not an expert at the issue (of Intel Processor microcode internal vulnerabilities). A thoughtful comment would have illuminated the issue, explained why the fixes were too broad or not specific enough, and how they could be improved.

> By a guy who is arguably not an expert at the issue Linus is the defacto expert on the Linux kernel. His familiarity with the kernel and long history on these issues gives him the credibility to say a patch or code is completely nonsensical. This isn't Intel's first rodeo. They know what is expected and they continue to play games with their code. If they are pushing garbage then there's a very good chance they kno…

Sorry, I've read the Linux kernel. Not a paragon of coding or design. Mr Linus is not a good programmer.

And he'd have to be an expert on Intel processor internals, which he really can't be. Not in a position to know the details.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#633
post #627
post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the top comment on this about engineering culture?! Linus is valuable precisely because he occasionally d-slaps people around, waking them up, even when what he says may be factually wrong, and reminding them the at the core the tech must be sane, f people and their feelings! Yeah, it's good to have a 1 in 1000 brilliant people being aholes because it keeps the culture balanced. We need a dose of rascality, an…

This is such a broken argument. The one upside of behaving this way is that it makes the HN frontpage and one can argue about the value of that for the issue at hand. It's pretty much established fact that, all other things being equal, being an asshole to people doesn't further your objectives and generally just results in people either ignoring you or getting more defensive and less cooperative than they would othe…

> Being socially inept is [...] a personality flaw.

That's a very dangerous and messed up reasoning. For a significant proportion of the population "society" is just a nasty scheme we put up with since we know not better way of not killing each other or exterminating ourselves as a species... Having to contort and torture one's personality just so you can be "socially adept" is a great pain, and when one occasionally gets away with being able not to do this it's NOT "a personality flaw".

One ought to care firstly for developing his/her personality in whichever way himself sees fit. If it doesn't fit well with society it's not a "flaw"!

(Yeah, if goes overboard and results in a team totally breaking up... even that is not a big deal! Some companies are worth breaking up into pieces. Heck, as long as people aren't literally killing each other it's still not "a flaw". Stop being insensitive and discriminating against people with other notions of relating themselves with the thinggy we call "society" and perpetuating this oppressive culture of admonishing people for being "socially inept". Maybe those people have something better to do with their lives!)

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#634
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being dr…

This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen. Many FOSS projects are led or dominated by large companies today; the development may happen in the open, but it is as "corporate" as it gets, and no bullshit calling occurs (or if it does, it is quickly silenced with EWONTFIX & co.)

> This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen

So what? Nobody said that. This is a strawman.

Of course FOSS is not sufficient. Look at any homework-style GitHub repo. Nobody disputes that.

All that is said is that FOSS is necessary to achieve this level of quality.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#635
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's quite clear about his theory as to Intel's motives: > The whole IBRS_ALL feature to me very clearly says "Intel is not serious about this, we'll have a ugly hack that will be so expensive that we don't want to enable it by default, because that would look bad in benchmarks". > So instead they try to push the garbage down to us. And they are doing it entirely wrong, even from a technical standpoint."

That bit sounds to me like Intel is trying to pull a "Volkswagen": have it perform better in benchmarks than in real life (when hopefully secure execution will be enabled).

intelswagen

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Being able to call out bullshit doesn't mean having to curse it out. Here we go. >> All Linus needs to do is say something like And all you need to do is be that nice and be as brilliant as Linus is. Oh, it's harder to be that smart than it is to be that nice? Maybe consider that for people as highly gifted as Linus, it actually isn't. What you take for granted as normal behavior isn't always normal to others, esp…

Manners were invented to prevent disease and stuff, but they're also used by the aristocracy to differentiate themselves from the rabble. Complaining about word choice and tone is an example of the latter. "Linus doesn't talk the way good people do."

I wonder how self-righteous those commenters would be if they were talking about a black person not "talking white enough".

All a sudden, it becomes pretty clear what the conversation is really about. Trying to police people for being different.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#637
post #628
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't diagnose him You made a blanket diagnosis for an entire industry and for a common human behavior when you stated that you attribute bluntness in IT to autism. DoreenMichele provided your own quote again for context but you yet again talked to different tangents. I can't tell if this is really a communication breakdown or if you're willfully avoiding the fact that you essentially said "programmers are Aspie…

It seems you are not reading my posts at all. You are coming across like a zealot who is on some kind of holy crusade. I already said that the conclusions you draw are far fetched, you claim they're entirely logical. We don't agree, and we clearly won't agree either. Furthermore, you put words in my mouth, and you paraphrase me with words I didn't use and would avoid. I would not describe Torvalds as a programmer, an…

Again you avoid the actual conversation in favor of tangents. No one is advocating for the term “Aspie” or saying you used it. No one is saying that no one in IT has autism. No one is censoring you. And no one is misrepresenting you by making direct quotations from your own post.

You directly accuse someone else of racism for saying that Finnish culture is blunt. But you happily attribute bluntness in IT to autism. I cannot believe you are this lacking in introspection and self-criticism.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obvious, and it's extremely sad to me that people believe otherwise and vehemently argue that Linus is justified in his pety rants. It was always pathetic . The response is shockingly adult, given the culture Linus insists on trying to push: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/05282.html What an excellent writeup, despite the tantrum Linus threw just a few replies earlier. I'd highly recommend on…

> The response is shockingly adult Some snippets from the response: > since the peanut gallery is paying lots of attention it's probably worth explaining it a little more for their benefit > not just drop it quietly because poor Davey is too scared that Linus might shout at him again > If we can be done with the shouty part, I'd actually quite like to have a sensible discussion None of this is adult. I'm not directly…

Linus doesn't get personal when he calls Intel engineers morons? Are they not persons?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#639
post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that it's impossible to learn without feeling bad about yourself? As in, you must feel personally ashamed and hurt, or else you're going to make the mistake again? If not, you're probably going to have to explain your position a little more, because that's how I'm reading it right now. Note, this can't be some abstract equivalence between "feel bad" and "know you made a mistake," because if that's wha…

Look back on your life. Do you remember the individual lessons in school? Unlikely. Do you remember the time you got sent to the principals office or the time you got yelled at for breaking a lamp or having a party? Much more likely. Lessons bundled with strong emotions make far better memories.

It seems like my education was vastly different than yours.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not a non sequitur. There is no separating out corporate culture from the fact that it is a corporation. FOSS is not a for profit corporation. Expecting it to function like one is not reasonable. Trying to impose corporate culture as the standard for FOSS is not only not reasonable, it is counterproductive. If you want corporate software, cool. But if you want FOSS to exist at all, there has to be a fundame…

I think we disagree on your assumptions. Positive team environment and corporate culture are not inextricably linked. They may overlap depending on the corporation in question, but they are not one in the same. This should be obvious since you can have a positive team environment on teams where no corporation is involved (e.g., hobby projects). Clearly the suggestion that FOSS should have a positive team environment…

Everything I am reading indicates that:

A. Linus doesn't do this very often. Most of the time, he is perfectly well mannered. But we don't hear about that. We only hear about these incidents.

B. Most of his work conversations occur on the public record. So anyone can get hold of it when he gets riled. When a CEO gets riled, that is much more likely to occur privately and get covered up.

C. He created Linux for free. It is his passion. It shouldn't be surprising that he feels strongly about it when it is threatened.

D. A corporation is trying to fuck his project over, no doubt for personal financial gain. In my book, that is a vastly bigger offense than a little swearing. Etiquette that focuses on polite words and excuses more serious offenses is not a good thing. If corporate culture were really the better answer here, then Linus' tirade would have never happened because Intel would not be trying to crap all over Linux to begin with.

So I find it incomprehensible that anyone would suggest that the solution here is for Linus to operate more like BigCo. He is a guardian of a public good. He is defending it from corporate greed. The lack of moral responsibility of a large corporation is the very reason he is cussing. Expecting him to be more like them amounts to asking him to sell us all out for money and the sake of saving face in public rather than taking a stand on our behalf.

The real focus of this discussion should not be the language Linus used. It should be "What the hell, Intel?" But I am not seeing that focus.

And I can tell you why I am not seeing it: Because no one is surprised or shocked that a corporation would do something so terrible. In fact, we expect it. So we don't bother to try to hold corporations to a moral standard.

Instead, we expect people like Linus to meet a moral standard because he consistently does. Then we give him hell when that isn't an easy thing to do in this shitty world.

The real solution to this problem is to be pissed at Intel, not lecturing Linus that he needs to behave better, just like corporations do. A corporation is the root cause of this issue.

That isn't a straw man. It is the crux of the problem here.

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