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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#621

Post by HelloNurse »

beached_whale wrote: post #552
jessaustin wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were removed, the new processors would simply be worth less than the ones that immediately preceded them. The systems you're thinking about would then cost less. What's the problem? The problem, of course, is that vendors couldn't pretend to sell systems that are worth the prices they would have quoted before all of this awfulness was exposed. That would be a problem for the vendors only. The rest of us would b…

But that penalizes the single process systems, they exist. One already pays a cost of overhead for multiprocess/multiuser systems and this is part of it. Pay for what you use. But have sane defaults(protect the common case). Then again, I cannot see this costing much in future chips.

This debate is about desktop and server processors. You are imagining there is a market segment, worth caring about for non-niche companies like Intel, of non-hackable systems with no network access that use high-end microprocessors, but it isn't so.

Most relatively complex systems that use deluxe microprocessors and could be air-gapped are accessible for convenience instead, and more extreme actually inaccessible systems are likely to use different, specialized processors.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#622

Post by heavenlyblue »

vlovich123 wrote: post #600
enriquto wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first is the personal attack when he calls Intel engineers morons. That 1 little unnecessary addon is uncalled for because it's quite reasonable that there's a lot of politics going on (...) can't be fixed properly without delaying & impacting revenue in a way that execs won't allow. If that is really the case, then calling the engineers morons is actually very much called for!

Note this is a hypothetical since it's quite possible it's not the case, in which case even by your logic the moron label is incorrect. So in your opinion engineers are unintelligent because they listen to the demands of people who can fire them or perhaps, god forbid, they're trying to balance technical solutions against revenue? That seems perfectly rational reasoning to me but that must be because I too am a moron…

Stop rattling about definitions.

If you had been working in a company that had been stopping you from doing your job then by definition the projection of the results of your work is "the results of my work show that I am a moron".

If you took the brightest person on earth and stopped him from communicating would that still make him "the brightest but unable to share" or would that make him "an idiot who has never learnt how to communcate his opinion"?

I am pretty sure you would pick different names for the same person depending on the situation, especially when it's more complex than a toilet conversation.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#623

Post by dpark »

Fnoord wrote: post #586
DoreenMichele wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your initial assertion: I attribute it not to country_of_origin, but to the [autism] spectrum. And you now say: As a general note we shouldn't diagnose other people, but that wasn't the intent of my original post at all. I merely noted its a trait people with autism commonly have. Those two things don't add up. Maybe think about that. There is a lot of other failed communication happening here that I don't really thi…

> Those two things don't add up. Maybe think about that. I didn't diagnose him, just like others didn't diagnose everyone from Finland with bluntness or whatever. Also, I already suspected you were going on about that one which is very hilarious given the fact that I am the one the two of us who has the ASD diagnosis and you suspect some of your family members have it. Your family members, as it stands, don't have an…

> I didn't diagnose him

You made a blanket diagnosis for an entire industry and for a common human behavior when you stated that you attribute bluntness in IT to autism.

DoreenMichele provided your own quote again for context but you yet again talked to different tangents. I can't tell if this is really a communication breakdown or if you're willfully avoiding the fact that you essentially said "programmers are Aspie" because you don't want to address your own prejudice.

If you believe that bluntness in IT is generally attributable to autism, then let's talk about that some more, because this is an incorrect and unhealthy belief. If you don't believe it, then don't say it, because it perpetuates this unhealthy viewpoint.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#624

Post by syshum »

piyush_soni wrote: post #619
syshum wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> right to abuse. Equating harsh even personally offensive language to "abuse" is the biggest disagreement here. Many people, myself included, prescribe to axiom of "sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me" I understand that the current generation believes that feels are the most important thing ever... I reject the idea that a person has the right not be offended, and I reject the idea tha…

It doesn't matter what meaning you personally attribute to it, harsh, deliberately insulting language is "verbal abuse". References: 1. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse (Look for meaning 3) 2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abuse Look for 'verbal abuse'.

Ahh the old Appeal to Definition fallacy, I figured that would be your only retort. Very common.

You know full well that in the context of this discussion you are attempting to conjure an emotional reaction based on an abuse definition of "Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." then use that emotional response in order to coerce people into self censor and speak in a manner you find acceptable and politically correct.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#625

Post by rjzzleep »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #622
vlovich123 wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note this is a hypothetical since it's quite possible it's not the case, in which case even by your logic the moron label is incorrect. So in your opinion engineers are unintelligent because they listen to the demands of people who can fire them or perhaps, god forbid, they're trying to balance technical solutions against revenue? That seems perfectly rational reasoning to me but that must be because I too am a moron…

Stop rattling about definitions. If you had been working in a company that had been stopping you from doing your job then by definition the projection of the results of your work is "the results of my work show that I am a moron". If you took the brightest person on earth and stopped him from communicating would that still make him "the brightest but unable to share" or would that make him "an idiot who has never lea…

It's kind of weird you spin it that way. I've seen all sorts of places and in general people at them bottom eventually stop communicating because people in the middle don't want to hear it. Just now I came out of a small session commemorating the death of a fellow engineer in his late 40s. His problem? Obesity combined with caring too much about things.

That's in fact the big summary of it all. Some people actually have families to take care of. Losing your job for most people is not an option. I personally don't care calling out bullshit, but I also don't have a wife and 3 kids. By that logic losing the job is the stupid option.

I guarantee you that both at intel and at VW people called out the crap from management, were threatened and then decided they don't care enough to risk their livelihoods.

Calling intel stupid is imho entirely justified, but your logic to me sounds weird.

That... or completely misunderstand it...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#626

Post by piyush_soni »

syshum wrote: post #624
piyush_soni wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what meaning you personally attribute to it, harsh, deliberately insulting language is "verbal abuse". References: 1. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse (Look for meaning 3) 2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abuse Look for 'verbal abuse'.

Ahh the old Appeal to Definition fallacy, I figured that would be your only retort. Very common. You know full well that in the context of this discussion you are attempting to conjure an emotional reaction based on an abuse definition of "Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." then use that emotional response in order to coerce people into self censor and speak in a manner you find acce…

Not sure what made you think all these things you're writing. By abuse I simply meant 'verbal abuse'. You yourself first apply hyperbolic meaning to the word, and then say it's not that. The whole argument is kind of strange to me. And when did showing dictionary meaning of the dictionary word I'm using start to be a fallacy of argument?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#627

Post by remon »

nnq wrote: post #575
cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

Why is the top comment on this about engineering culture?! Linus is valuable precisely because he occasionally d-slaps people around, waking them up, even when what he says may be factually wrong, and reminding them the at the core the tech must be sane, f people and their feelings! Yeah, it's good to have a 1 in 1000 brilliant people being aholes because it keeps the culture balanced. We need a dose of rascality, an…

This is such a broken argument. The one upside of behaving this way is that it makes the HN frontpage and one can argue about the value of that for the issue at hand. It's pretty much established fact that, all other things being equal, being an asshole to people doesn't further your objectives and generally just results in people either ignoring you or getting more defensive and less cooperative than they would otherwise be. Being socially inept is not exactly a rare trait amongst very smart people but let's recognise it for what it is, a personality flaw.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#628

Post by Fnoord »

dpark wrote: post #623
Fnoord wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those two things don't add up. Maybe think about that. I didn't diagnose him, just like others didn't diagnose everyone from Finland with bluntness or whatever. Also, I already suspected you were going on about that one which is very hilarious given the fact that I am the one the two of us who has the ASD diagnosis and you suspect some of your family members have it. Your family members, as it stands, don't have an…

> I didn't diagnose him You made a blanket diagnosis for an entire industry and for a common human behavior when you stated that you attribute bluntness in IT to autism. DoreenMichele provided your own quote again for context but you yet again talked to different tangents. I can't tell if this is really a communication breakdown or if you're willfully avoiding the fact that you essentially said "programmers are Aspie…

It seems you are not reading my posts at all. You are coming across like a zealot who is on some kind of holy crusade. I already said that the conclusions you draw are far fetched, you claim they're entirely logical. We don't agree, and we clearly won't agree either.

Furthermore, you put words in my mouth, and you paraphrase me with words I didn't use and would avoid. I would not describe Torvalds as a programmer, and I would carefully avoid the word "aspie" or "asperger" ever since I learned they're superseded (since my diagnosis, Sept 2017). Because THAT word is stereotypical whereas the spectrum is far more broad. There is no shame in being autistic/ASD/part of spectrum either. I certainly don't feel ashamed about it (I'm not proud about it either btw).

I have no interest in discussing this further with you because I have no interest in getting convinced by you that autistics aren't part of IT while I am getting signals that people within the spectrum are indeed overly represented in certain professions, including IT. But that wasn't my point because if I wanted to draw a caricature of an autist in IT I got far better examples available.

Go spend your time convincing someone else instead, and perhaps consider a worthwhile subject instead of nitpicking on a conclusion you drew and aren't refuting with data either.

TL;DR:

> If you don't believe it, then don't say it, because it perpetuates this unhealthy viewpoint.

You won't censor me. Au revoir.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#629

Post by cannam »

rsync wrote: post #392
mpweiher wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part of the lifecycle where the clueless have taken over: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

I highly recommend all of ribbonfarm and especially: - ancient rivers of money - The Return of the Barbarian - Can Hydras eat unknown unknowns for lunch There is also a more recent one where he writes about young people and their attitudes about money and property ownership and "life scripts" that was here on HN and metafilter and other places but I don't know the name of it ... was quite good.

Sounds like "The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial" https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2017/08/17/the-premium-mediocre-l...

No, I don't know how I came to be replying about Ribbonfarm a day late to a comment deep in a thread I haven't read most of.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#630

Post by syshum »

piyush_soni wrote: post #626
syshum wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh the old Appeal to Definition fallacy, I figured that would be your only retort. Very common. You know full well that in the context of this discussion you are attempting to conjure an emotional reaction based on an abuse definition of "Treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." then use that emotional response in order to coerce people into self censor and speak in a manner you find acce…

Not sure what made you think all these things you're writing. By abuse I simply meant 'verbal abuse'. You yourself first apply hyperbolic meaning to the word, and then say it's not that. The whole argument is kind of strange to me. And when did showing dictionary meaning of the dictionary word I'm using start to be a fallacy of argument?

Either you are trolling, or naive into the Politically Correct Social Justice world around you if you do not understand the point of view I am speaking against.

World where people are fired from their jobs because they tell a joke someone finds offensive, I world where you are just one twit or one overheard conversation away from the outrage mob ruining your life..

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