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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#611

Post by supergirl »

cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

what does work culture have to do with any of this? you want people to always behave as if they are at work? I rather not. companies have no desire to allow any kind of speech that would hamper productivity or create bad PR.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#612

Post by Treblemaker »

icelancer wrote: post #250
kijin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if one were confused as to who said what, the combination of "shit" and "f*cking insane" should have cleared it right up.

Very true. One could always hope someone took that tone with Linus. That'd be funny.

Someone did take that tone with him. Granted, it was Linus himself, but still, he is someone and he did it.

"In fact, it seems to be such a fundamental bug that I suspect I'm entirely wrong, and full of shit. So it's an interesting and not _obviously_ incorrect theory, but I suspect I must be missing something." [1]

And it is funny. And I respect that he is equally blunt when speaking of himself.

[1] http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/02302.html

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#613

Post by mseebach »

prewett wrote: post #416
mseebach wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some bias to this, though. Good management is much more "everything and everybody just seemingly by if self seems to be more or less in the right place" and less "Steve Jobs screaming at everybody about rounded corners and then everybody realising five years later that this is actually a much bigger deal than everbody except Jobs saw at the time" -- in other words, pretty invisible.

I'm curious, how were the round corners important? I like them, and I buy his argument that nothing in the real world has sharp corners, but Android has had sharp corners forever. (I'm asking because I'd like to know the answer, not because I'm asserting the opposite.)

I really don't know. It just seems to be once of the anecdotes people use to illustrate the genius of Jobs.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#614

Post by nodja »

rtpg wrote: post #605
nodja wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Torvalds emails are not like this. In fact most of them are like you say, he explains his thoughts in a sensible manner. It's just when people play with fire that the lid comes of and makes the headlines. A sensible mail discussing the details of some obscure technicality doesn't make HN frontpage.

Even if it's just once a month... I think very few teams would be able to deal with a co-worker with such violent outbursts. Ok he's mad. We all get mad. I've never said someone should have been aborted, no matter how mad I get. He has, over a ... A diff. Perhaps he has some difficulties, like some of us do. Has he ever acknowledged his attitude in any way?

> Has he ever acknowledged his attitude in any way?

Yes.

> I don't know where you happen to be based, but this 'you have to be nice' seems to be very popular in the US.

> The same way we have developers and marketing people and legal people who speak different languages, I think we can have some developers who are used to—and prefer—a more confrontational style, and still also have people who don't,

> Maybe it's just because I like arguing," Torvalds added. "I'm just not a huge believer in politeness and sensitivity being preferable over bluntly letting people know your feelings. But I also understand that other people are driven away by cursing and crass language when it all gets a bit too carried away.

Source: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/01/linus...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#615

Post by lucideer »

quotheth wrote: post #520
cromwellian wrote: post #516

A lot of people trying to defend being a jerk as necessary in these circumstances. I think Google culture proves the opposite: Googley code and peer reviews, blameless postmortems, and a host of other mechanisms that de-escalate and de-personalize things. The Meltdown work at Google probably didn't begin with a rant about morons. It's possible to construct a culture where people can air grievances and criticize other…

This is obvious, and it's extremely sad to me that people believe otherwise and vehemently argue that Linus is justified in his pety rants. It was always pathetic . The response is shockingly adult, given the culture Linus insists on trying to push: http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1801.2/05282.html What an excellent writeup, despite the tantrum Linus threw just a few replies earlier. I'd highly recommend on…

> The response is shockingly adult

Some snippets from the response:

> since the peanut gallery is paying lots of attention it's probably worth explaining it a little more for their benefit

> not just drop it quietly because poor Davey is too scared that Linus might shout at him again

> If we can be done with the shouty part, I'd actually quite like to have a sensible discussion

None of this is adult. I'm not directly defending Linus' tone, or claiming that he's "more adult", but derogating and condescending the audience reading these public posts (1st quote), making cheap jokes about Linus' behaviour (2nd quote) and directly insulting Linus (3rd quote) is not what I would define as an "adult" response. Linus' email at least only gets angry and offensive while critiquing the code, and doesn't get personal.

> The rant contains no valuable information, the response is excellent and far more informative

Linus' "rant" informed me that Intel are setting IBRS as a default-off feature that must be asked for - offloading responsibility for security to the software. The response opens by condescending me, tells me that IBRS is expensive (we know), retpoline is performant, and the informativeness seems to stop there.

It then posits that as somehow justifying the offloading of said responsibility with the following:

> Then along came Paul with the cunning plan of "oh, indirect branches can be exploited? Screw it, let's not have any of those then", which is retpoline.

> But wait, why did I say "mostly"? Well, not everyone has a retpoline compiler yet... but OK, screw them; they need to update.

"Screw them" is the crux of his answer to Linus' concerns. Sorry, how is this in any way an adult response?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#616

Post by siras »

donatj wrote: post #604
somestag wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing that it's impossible to learn without feeling bad about yourself? As in, you must feel personally ashamed and hurt, or else you're going to make the mistake again? If not, you're probably going to have to explain your position a little more, because that's how I'm reading it right now. Note, this can't be some abstract equivalence between "feel bad" and "know you made a mistake," because if that's wha…

Look back on your life. Do you remember the individual lessons in school? Unlikely. Do you remember the time you got sent to the principals office or the time you got yelled at for breaking a lamp or having a party? Much more likely. Lessons bundled with strong emotions make far better memories.

Well I don't remember any of that. Never was sent to the office, don't recall breaking anything save for one of my own plates recently. I do recall a few lessons though. Parties are more of a blur to me. If I recall something with strong emotions any other significant information will be lost. I am definitely personally not capable of learning from someone yelling at me. I will just feel remorse or awful about myself. That is not productive.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#617

Post by piyush_soni »

Retra wrote: post #562
piyush_soni wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, your understanding is that intelligent people have the right to abuse. That's just akin to supporting oppression of weaker by stronger. That might be how things are for a lot of people, but not how they should be. Also, mad internet people have historically changed a lot of things, so I'm justified in showing my disapproval even if it won't change Linus. Changing at least one upcoming Linus in life would be a…

Maybe you should be more concerned about people who are actually threats to you, rather than those who just use language you don't like.

I'm already more concerned about the people who are an actual threat to me, just that I'm also concerned about prolific people using abusive language to insult lesser intelligent people. If I write in the tone that everybody else here is writing in support of Linus' abusive language, I'd say "I am what I am, get over it".

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#618

Post by piyush_soni »

davidkuhta wrote: post #345
piyush_soni wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BULLSHIT (I hear you like it). It's about basic etiquette, and treating humans as humans. No amount of gifted skill is a threshold for crossing that behavior barrier.

While I believe your perspective to be reasonable, you do realize that your first sentence undermines your credibility to assert there validity.

Sometimes like for like treatment is necessary.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#619

Post by piyush_soni »

syshum wrote: post #329
piyush_soni wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, your understanding is that intelligent people have the right to abuse. That's just akin to supporting oppression of weaker by stronger. That might be how things are for a lot of people, but not how they should be. Also, mad internet people have historically changed a lot of things, so I'm justified in showing my disapproval even if it won't change Linus. Changing at least one upcoming Linus in life would be a…

>> right to abuse. Equating harsh even personally offensive language to "abuse" is the biggest disagreement here. Many people, myself included, prescribe to axiom of "sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me" I understand that the current generation believes that feels are the most important thing ever... I reject the idea that a person has the right not be offended, and I reject the idea tha…

It doesn't matter what meaning you personally attribute to it, harsh, deliberately insulting language is "verbal abuse". References:

1. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse

(Look for meaning 3)

2. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abuse

Look for 'verbal abuse'.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#620

Post by piyush_soni »

FuckOffNeemo wrote: post #510
syshum wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> right to abuse. Equating harsh even personally offensive language to "abuse" is the biggest disagreement here. Many people, myself included, prescribe to axiom of "sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me" I understand that the current generation believes that feels are the most important thing ever... I reject the idea that a person has the right not be offended, and I reject the idea tha…

Started writing a response before reading your own, I think you've nailed my perspective on the matter. Abuse is not offense, offense is not abuse.

Oxford dictionary says otherwise. Replied to the parent comment with references.
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