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Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

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Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#111

Post by perl4ever »

ebbv wrote: post #23
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #17

You know I take issue with Tesla on these incidents. They're trying to have it both ways. They market it as 'autopilot' to appeal to the dream of complete self-driving but if an accident actually happens it can never be the fault of autopilot. After all it's required for the driver to be paying attention so if they didn't override autopilot it's obvious they weren't paying attention. Really I'd like to see the govern…

Agreed. I am a big fan of Tesla and I used to make excuses for them on this but I think it’s b.s. they didn’t rename it after the incident where the guy died. Cool marketing names do not outweigh being totally honest and up front. If I made rat poison that looked like candy and named it “Yummy Candy Rat Poison” and some kid died coz they ate it, I’d deserve some blame regardless of parents keeping poison away from ki…

I don't think the naming is the problem. No matter what you call it, the fact that it works 99% of the time gives people confidence to continue using it, up until it doesn't work, and then there's no time to react. In a car, you generally have some space and time in front of you, but you usually have no lateral margin of error, and that assymmetry is what makes it different from planes and boats.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#113

Post by kalleboo »

jsjohnst wrote: post #68
kalleboo wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is that almost nobody knows what an Autopilot actually does. Even here on Hacker News you see comments to the effect of "why do we still need pilots, planes take off fly and land by themselves!"

I do not know of a commercial airline autopilot that does taxi / takeoff.

That's my point - the public perception (even among a technical crowd) is way off from the reality. People think an "Autopilot" does way more than it actually does.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#114

Post by nightski »

manicdee wrote: post #93
ucaetano wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pilots are never expected to get their eyes off the controls. Pilots do so all the time, because airplanes aren't flying in a congested 2D space. Airspace is mostly empty, with very large distances between planes and features, allowing for plenty of early warning. And an airplane's "autopilot" has nothing to do with Tesla's Autopilot. Their purpose and working mechanisms are completely different. The airplane analo…

The aircraft autopilot is pretty much the same thing. It steers on the designated lane, maintaining attitude, and relies on the pilot to be aware of conditions. It operates the controls but relies on the human operator for supervision. Pilots talk about “flying in the magenta” and exactly the same thing applies to Tesla Autopilot. Believing that autopilot means something different is the bullshit attitude that has to…

An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions with other traffic or animals. It's purpose is only to maintain course, speed, and altitude. In VFR conditions while autopilots are useful continuous scanning of your surroundings is necessary.

Meanwhile a Tesla "autopilot" is designed to drive in traffic with other vehicles.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#115

Post by manicdee »

I take issue with people who insist on abrogating responsibility. The Tesla tells you to keeps your hands on the wheel.

Pilot training covers techniques for avoiding automation dependency (aka letting autopilot kill you and all tour passengers). Perhaps we need the same for car drivers: if the car was as good a driver as you, it wouldn’t give you the option to drive.

https://youtu.be/pN41LvuSz10

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#116

Post by 0xffff2 »

sowbug wrote: post #91
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #17

You know I take issue with Tesla on these incidents. They're trying to have it both ways. They market it as 'autopilot' to appeal to the dream of complete self-driving but if an accident actually happens it can never be the fault of autopilot. After all it's required for the driver to be paying attention so if they didn't override autopilot it's obvious they weren't paying attention. Really I'd like to see the govern…

Tesla autopilot is more capable than an airplane autopilot. An airplane on autopilot will crash into stationary objects in its path, by design . Thus, airplane autopilots require full pilot attention as well. This thread happens with every Tesla crash, by the way: 1. Tesla crashes 2. Driver says autopilot was engaged 3. Long debate on HN about exact meaning of word "autopilot" 4. 9 times out of 10, Tesla log says aut…

Can someone explain why this is being downvoted? At least with regard to airplane autopilots, it is completely acurate.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#117

Post by manicdee »

nightski wrote: post #114
manicdee wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aircraft autopilot is pretty much the same thing. It steers on the designated lane, maintaining attitude, and relies on the pilot to be aware of conditions. It operates the controls but relies on the human operator for supervision. Pilots talk about “flying in the magenta” and exactly the same thing applies to Tesla Autopilot. Believing that autopilot means something different is the bullshit attitude that has to…

An aircraft autopilot is not designed to automatically avoid collisions with other traffic or animals. It's purpose is only to maintain course, speed, and altitude. In VFR conditions while autopilots are useful continuous scanning of your surroundings is necessary. Meanwhile a Tesla "autopilot" is designed to drive in traffic with other vehicles.

The aircraft autopilot can also fly a route and handle everything from takeoff to landing, but pilots don’t rely on it to do so.

Tesla Autopilot can keep pace with surrounding traffic and stay between marked lines but does not recognise stationary obstacles.

They are very much the same in that they automate the mundane parts of the operation of the vehicle. They are also the same in that they do not know how to handle conditions outside their operating envelope.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#118

Post by manicdee »

in_cahoots wrote: post #102
manicdee wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The aircraft autopilot is pretty much the same thing. It steers on the designated lane, maintaining attitude, and relies on the pilot to be aware of conditions. It operates the controls but relies on the human operator for supervision. Pilots talk about “flying in the magenta” and exactly the same thing applies to Tesla Autopilot. Believing that autopilot means something different is the bullshit attitude that has to…

I think the main difference is that, on an airplane, a momentary (less than 5 seconds) lapse in judgment isn’t going to down the plane. Pilots know when they have to be heavily engaged — during takeoff and landing — and when to let autopilot take over. Here, if you zone out for a few seconds at any point in your trip you could easily kill yourself and others.

A lapse of judgement is potentially going to cost lives in a plane too. You have an overly romanticised notion of air safety if you believe otherwise. Pilot Error is what they call it, including euphemisms such as “controlled flight into terrain” meaning the pilot was in control and doing everything wrong.

There are two people flying the plane, with rigorous training and controlled work hours. Air safety, as they say, is no accident.

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#119

Post by paulddraper »

jsjohnst wrote: post #62
fleitz wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's lots of autopilot systems that smash into shit, sailboats are one of them, you can put your sailboat on autopilot and it's going to smash into stuff. Samething with an airliner, autopilot will not avoid another aircraft.

> Samething with an airliner, autopilot will not avoid another aircraft. Wrong! There are autopilots which integrate TCAS into the autopilot (A380 among them). Source: http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2009/08/eas...

They exist. But collision avoidance is far from a necessary retirement. E.g. my father in law's private single engine. Autopilot is basically cruise control, but you know...for a pilot

Re: Tesla ‘on Autopilot’ slams into parked fire truck on freeway

#120

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #110
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common misinterpretation. The data only shows that TACC + Autosteer reduced crashes by 40% vs TACC alone. There is no comparison to complete driver control.

Tesla’s data shows autopilot (TACC + Autosteer) to be 50% safer than human driver control. While I have yet to see an independent study verifying that, the evidence is compelling. Humans are terrible drivers. Time will tell as they ramp production.

Where does Tesla's data show TACC + Autosteer to be 50% safer than human driver control?
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