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Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

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Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#301

Post by acdha »

dschuetz wrote: post #199
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus, like Jobs, is a bully. He lives under the sword. The moment he stops being right, everyone will swiftly turn against them. What separates them is that they're almost never wrong. Not when they pull out "this is garbage" card. This is a difficult ability to learn. You need to stay quiet most of the time, then be a complete asshole when it's important. I really hate that aspect of our industry. But that's just h…

I think there needs to be a clear distinction of what a bully is and what they do. Bullies are violent for no reason, for the pleasure of it. Linus is at most verbally harsh for pretty obvious reasons, the main reason being the harsh his language the more important the issue is. His attacks and critique are never on the personal basis, yet people get offended for no apparent reason instead of focusing on the issue. S…

> His attacks and critique are never on the personal basis

I don’t know how you can believe this after reading even a few of his messages. Read the message which started this thread and count the number of times where he is talking about not just the quality of work but the person who produced it.

It’s possible to be blunt and unforgiving about code without saying that the person who created it is a moron.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#302

Post by EamonnMR »

crdoconnor wrote: post #278
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being dr…

I think this is dead on. I think at Microsoft that guy was Dave Cutler. Most of the really well designed stuff seems to have him at the helm - NT4.0, bits of XP, Win2k, Windows Server 2003 and then Azure. I have a suspicion that Satya's rise to CEOdom via Azure's success could be attributed to him too.

If you're a Cutler fan you may enjoy Showstopper[1], an account of the creation of NT.

1: https://www.amazon.com/Show-Stopper-Breakneck-Generation-Mic...

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#303

Post by draugadrotten »

eeeficus wrote: post #230
alerighi wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that every fix that you could think for Spectre reduces the performance of the CPU. So not enabling this by default it's a good choice, Spectre is very difficult to exploit: so if you do critical things you enable the fix, if you use the computer for gaming, video rendering, and things where you don't care too much about security but you care about performance, you don't enable it.

Why not the other way around? You have the fix enabled and if you don't know you get protected by default. If you really know better then you can disable the fix (via a special CPU instruction), because you know you're not running anything critical?

> you can disable the fix (via a special CPU instruction)

The CPU can not be allowed to disable the fix, because then that could be done by an attacker. Therefore the only more secure way is to move in the secure direction, from insecure to more secure.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#304

Post by madaxe_again »

pessimizer wrote: post #272
jimktrains2 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pc culture? What are you talking about? Linus is pc (in that he doesn't go on misogynistic, racist, or similar rants and doesn't denigrate people for their non-technical decisions) , he's just not nice to those that should know better. While I think you've also been bitten by the "we accept everyone! (who thinks the way we do)" crowd as well, this is not the place or the way to express that frustration.

Some people think that directness and honesty is identical to saying racist, sexist, and homophobic things. So "PC" becomes equivalent to "lying to make people like you."

Those people are wrong. Don’t worry about them.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#305

Post by erikb »

Animats wrote: post #31

Well, Torvalds has been heard from, along with Bloomberg and The Economist, as saying that Intel is in denial about this being a big, big problem.

Also if there are huge changes at the top of the internal food chain a huge corp, which is already slow by definition, will react even slower. This problem set is likely to extend more before it gets better.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#306

Post by dfischer »

icelancer wrote: post #240
pm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was a bully who got the big picture right, but often got the details wrong; folklore.org has plenty of stories about people going round Jobs to get shit done. Linus is abrasive, but he usually has a good explanation for why the target of his ire is a moron, e.g. everytime some coder without Linus’ experience suggests converting the kernel codebase to C++. Let’s be honest, most developers are average at best, and…

>> C++ This is the only way you can get Linus to really lose his shit. I'm surprised his comments in this Intel thing approach the level of anger he has for C++. It's my barometer for how important something is to him.

Have an example post? Would like to read for a chuckle. :$

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#307

Post by alxlaz »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #126
joelthelion wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FOSS is so important FOSS is nice, but it's not a silver bullet. In this case I think Linus is largely to thank. Things will be a lot harder if he decides to retire.

A silver bullet is having one smart guy at the top who doesn't care how much pressure you exert on getting something into the codebase, or how much man-hours were spent (sunk cost fallacy). I think in a lot of "corporate" projects (not-open source) there's much less of that and the software is designed by commission, with the lead developer(s) quickly no longer having much of an influence on the code itself, being dr…

This may be true, but FOSS does not magically make it happen. Many FOSS projects are led or dominated by large companies today; the development may happen in the open, but it is as "corporate" as it gets, and no bullshit calling occurs (or if it does, it is quickly silenced with EWONTFIX & co.)

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#308

Post by theptip »

Ygg2 wrote: post #284
pessimizer wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people think that directness and honesty is identical to saying racist, sexist, and homophobic things. So "PC" becomes equivalent to "lying to make people like you."

The argument goes like this, the acerbic culture that grows around Linus is toxic towards female and (sexual/ethnic) minorities, because such contributor are disinclined to join projects where the lead can get verbally abusive. From what I've gathered the findings are based on real data.

> based on real data

Citation? Sounds interesting.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#309

Post by josteink »

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #223
ShabbosGoy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only spot, but also invests the energy in calling it out and explaining it. Which is why FOSS is so important. Can you imagine a world where Linux was closed source? You’d never have any insight into security patches, or these discussions.

In most other FOSS projects people would be afraid to be that frank when referring to Intel's behavior though.

You also have the case of SJWs and Internet lynch mob’s being a real life threats to your project, your personal privacy and potentially your employment if you don’t show yourself to be “tolerant” enough in your communication.

Calling genuine shit out as such can literally land you in a shitstorm if the person receiving message is of wrong color or sexualual orientation, etc, and decides to make that the point of the story he passes along.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#310

Post by Sean1708 »

Kalium wrote: post #122
phyzome wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and I both know there's a (large) middle ground.

Thank you for saying so and well spotted! You're absolutely right. There is very much a large middle ground. Is it possible that a middle ground of politely offering carefully tempered criticism might exist? It certainly does! Is it possible that it could potentially lack the same impact as the approach Linus used? This strikes me as also possible. My experience to date is that polite criticism carefully wrapped to a…

In my experience being aggressive or patronising tends to cause people to become combative which in turn makes them (subconsciously or otherwise) less likely to actually understand the point you're trying to make and more likely to waste time trying to convince you of their point. I find that presenting your case in a calm and relatively neutral way (note not "wrapped to avoid being upsetting in any way ...", that's a false dichotomy in my opinion) tends to be the most effective approach overall.
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