Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.” • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#91

Post by Tijdreiziger » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #84

nolok wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big simplification: Proper way to fix an hardware bug like this, is that newer cpu gets protected by default, and they answer they are when queried. So you can ask the CPU "what's your status on bug X" and the cpu answers "i'm good, you don't need to do anything" (newer fixed chips), or "i know about it but was already built, and need microcode update/special behavior to protect myself" (current chips with microcode…

This doesn't make sense though. If Intel indeed plans to leave chips vulnerable except if you set a flag, then how are these bullshit patches? This will be the only solution Intel is going to deliver right? I get that he doesn't like it, but that doesn't explain why he feels lied to. If Intel says "we're going to not turn the patch on by default", wherein does he suspect the lie?

The bullshit part is that Intel is trying to push this as a 'solution'. Linux is incredibly important, so if Linus does not approve of this 'solution', it'll be very difficult for Intel to go through with it (of course, they could also be brash and still do it).

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#92

Post by kevinwang » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #52

akira2501 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linus having issues with a patch is, well, not particularly newsworthy. Why not? The lead engineer of the linux kernel project has specific issues with security patches from a major hardware vendor. I understand the constant distaste that some users here have with Linus' style, but I don't understand the constant need to denigrate his positions by attempting to paint them as particularly diminutive.

It is patch from Amazon, not from hardware vendor.

Where did you see that the patch is from Amazon?

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#93

Post by AnthonBerg » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #64

mrmondo wrote: post #8

I think we should count ourselves lucky we have someone so good at spotting bullsh*t like this - and isn’t afraid to call it out as they sees it. Intel & friends have absolutely disgusted me lately, it could be all to easy to settle for less based on their standards, but let’s not let them set the standard - they’ve shown they can’t be trusted with quality and when they fail - they can’t be trusted to be transparent…

Yes, and so happy he doesn't follow the kinds of BS rules set out here: https://medium.com/@sandya.sankarram/unlearning-toxic-behavi...

Don’t be silly. Those are just the baseline of efficient professionalism. Harnessing anger is out of scope of those, just like knowing mouth-to-mouth, how to use the fire escapes, knowing what your stock options are worth, when to blow a whistle to corruption, when to break the speed limit to save a life, or whatever the hell other important facets of life exist.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#94

Post by lucb1e » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:13 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #24

brunoqc wrote: post #22

Why do people censor words like that? They are not fooling anyone.

They are not fooling anyone. They are fooling the content filters some corporate services use to block emails though.

I suspect it has more to do with the American culture. Every time I watch something American, be it a TV show or YouTube from a big name, things are constantly bleeped out or you notice they don't mention swear words. It's super annoying - either accept it and stop beeping, or stop swearing all the fucking time. It's also not as if you have no idea what that beep meant.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#95

Post by sclangdon » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #35

Am I the only person who finds this extremely difficult to read? The top says "David wrote" and then it looks like he's replying to a message from Linus Torvalds. So any quoted text is by Linus, right? But then....the letter is signed by Linus? So who wrote it? I know this is some ancient technology but Jesus, the user interface is horrendous.

Linus Torvalds originaly said:

"All of this is pure garbage. Is Intel really planning on making this shit architectural? Has anybody talked to them and told them they are f*cking insane? Please, any Intel engineers here - talk to your managers."

David Woodhouse replied with:

If the alternative was a two-decade product recall and giving everyone free CPUs, I'm not sure it was entirely insane."

The rest is written by Linus, with all further quoted segments being something David Woodhouse wrote.

> "the user interface is horrendous"

The user interface is perfectly clear if you know how to read it.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#96

Post by mmrezaie » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

jnordwick wrote: post #57

fouc wrote: post #46

Are state actors or others trying to take advantage of meltdown needing fixes & patches to insert their own version of fixes & patches that end up benefiting them?

As far as we know, there has never been a single attack using either of specter or meltdown issues. No code had been found, nothing. It appears to be very difficult to take advantage of, and the initial idea of a JavaScript exploit seems to not be possible. Part of the reason for all of this might be that the attacker needs to run code on the target machine, and one the attacker can do that, there are far easier ways…

https://github.com/dag-erling/meltdown

One of many source codes online and they are actually pretty understandable by me. I am just a mediocre c programmer.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#97

Post by lucb1e » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #35

Am I the only person who finds this extremely difficult to read? The top says "David wrote" and then it looks like he's replying to a message from Linus Torvalds. So any quoted text is by Linus, right? But then....the letter is signed by Linus? So who wrote it? I know this is some ancient technology but Jesus, the user interface is horrendous.

> Am I the only person who finds this extremely difficult to read?

I found it clear in this case.

I'm often confused by mailing lists and nobody in the HN thread mentions anything, but this time it was 100% clear to me on the first read and I see lots of complaints.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#98

Post by aidenn0 » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #87

aidenn0 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus seems to have two complaints: 1) Recent patch submissions imply that Intel has no good hardware or microcode mitigation for spectre-like attacks. There is a sub-complaint that Intel has a bad (i.e. kills performance) fix, but will not enable it by default because benchmarks matter. 2) This series of patches in particular appears to be doing either something different, or more than what their descriptions imply…

(FYI you're missing your [1] reference.)

Thanks, I had a footnote, but decided it would be more confusing than clarifying at the ELI5 level.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#99

Post by ewi_ » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #64

mrmondo wrote: post #8

I think we should count ourselves lucky we have someone so good at spotting bullsh*t like this - and isn’t afraid to call it out as they sees it. Intel & friends have absolutely disgusted me lately, it could be all to easy to settle for less based on their standards, but let’s not let them set the standard - they’ve shown they can’t be trusted with quality and when they fail - they can’t be trusted to be transparent…

Yes, and so happy he doesn't follow the kinds of BS rules set out here: https://medium.com/@sandya.sankarram/unlearning-toxic-behavi...

I'd like to believe that one of the reasons Linus has that kind of reaction is because of the scope and impact his decisions and this kind of patches can have on people all around the world. This is a very specific situation, in which the advices in Sandya's article may not apply.

However, I fail to see how Sandya's observations are BS. A code review is a place to improve code and oneself, and there's a pretty large distinction between constructive criticism and sarcastic/aggressive comments. Being respectful/mindful of your colleague in that situation is in my opinion the minimal requirement.

Re: Linus Torvalds: “Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons.”

#100

Post by Tijdreiziger » Mon, Jan 22, 2018, 9:16 AM UTC

teekert wrote: post #28

Why doesn't Intel just go to Linus and ask politely: "Ok, we f-ed up, here is a million dollars (or whatever, 10x his normal salary or something) can you please work with us tightly for some time? Thank you." I would really respect Intel if they would.

Why don't they just work on a proper fix instead? I'm sure Linus would be glad to integrate a proper solution, but it's clear that his opinion is that Intel is instead bringing 'garbage' to the table.