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The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

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Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#81

Post by archagon »

ghoststories wrote: post #48
Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s when he refers to so-called “cultural marxism” taking over universities and political correctness being a huge problem that sets off warning bells for me.

What exactly bothers you here? How else would you refer to the processes that lead to forcing professionals at these universities to use dozens of novel non-binary gender pronouns, or to shield students from content that may be considered "offensive" or "triggering"? If you don't think those things are in fact serious problems, then I guess you aren't "woke" to that side of the debate. The "campus left" has done ever…

I think "examples in the media are not representative" is exactly it. I regularly hang out with grad students at UC Berkeley, which I suppose is the perceived center of American liberalism. As far as I can tell, nobody's apoplectic about that kind of stuff here. Yeah, sometimes people get angry when the university appropriates valuable funding to invite unpopular, rabble-rousing demagogues to speak against the wishes of the student body — but that level of public protest has always been present, here and on other campuses across the nation. And in any case, there's plenty of students grumbling about this kind of behavior whenever it happens.

Somehow, the media spins "a small group of people wants a place to occasionally discuss very sensitive issues" to "SAFE SPACES HAVE TAKEN OVER AMERICAN CAMPUSES". I dunno, maybe there are one or two campuses that are especially bad in this regard. But I can't help but roll my eyes at this kind of conservative pearl-clutching.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#82

Post by gizmo »

mercer wrote: post #74
gizmo wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your summary of the centrist objection is that it's false. The Overton window isn't narrowing -- it's expanding. Look at the last presidential elections. You had Bernie Sanders expressing socialist ideas and opposition to the 1%. Expressing those ideas used to be political suicide, but not anymore. At the same time Trump expanded the Overton window enormously to the right. Look at the political disco…

I think the Overton window might very well be expanding on a society scale, but that doesn't preclude it from narrowing on 'community scale'. Anecdotally I do get the impression that engaging with others about politics ('community scale') is much more explosive these days, on both 'sides' of various issues. I get the same impression when I think about the publications that often come up in conversations. It's like tw…

What can and what cannot be said is in constant flux. For every newly introduced taboo other taboos go away. It's conceivable that the Overton window narrows on 'community scale', but I don't see any evidence for that. In some communities the Overton window is shifted massively in one direction, but not at the expense of width.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#83

Post by bjourne »

ghoststories wrote: post #48
Synaesthesia wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s when he refers to so-called “cultural marxism” taking over universities and political correctness being a huge problem that sets off warning bells for me.

What exactly bothers you here? How else would you refer to the processes that lead to forcing professionals at these universities to use dozens of novel non-binary gender pronouns, or to shield students from content that may be considered "offensive" or "triggering"? If you don't think those things are in fact serious problems, then I guess you aren't "woke" to that side of the debate. The "campus left" has done ever…

The phrase "cultural marxism." You don't need to read much about Marxism to realize that it is a completely absurd oxymoron.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#84

Post by ghoststories »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #77
ghoststories wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "more inclusive" actually mean? People are being forced to be overly accommodating to the sensitivities of certain "oppressed" groups, for fear of being ostracized and branded as horrible people. For example, if as a Christian you don't like the idea of gay marriage, you better not mention it in a group, unless maybe if you're Muslim, in which case your oppressed religious status allows that. It's a social…

People are free to feel how they like, like not liking gay marriage, but if they actually act on those beliefs, they're infringing on the rights and freedoms of others and that's not ok. I don't care if you're Christian or Muslim. You don't think Muslims are more oppressed than Christians? They're way more oppressed. It's Christians which get a free pass.

What exactly do you mean by "acting on those beliefs"? Let's say you have a debate and somebody questions the very idea that gay marriage is or should be a right? What do you mean by "not OK", what should be the consequences here?

"You don't think Muslims are more oppressed than Christians? They're way more oppressed. It's Christians which get a free pass."

I don't even know what "Muslims are more oppressed than Christians" is even supposed to mean. There's no context.

If we're talking about expressing opinions on campus regarding gay marriage or abortion, I doubt Christians would get a "free pass" over Muslims.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#85

Post by ghoststories »

gizmo wrote: post #79
rendall wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I would argue those examples are not protected "free speech", since their intent is to cause imminent harm. But point taken. I did misspeak when I said "Calmly stated ideas". I meant, specifically, any idea that is not intended to cause imminent harm. Imminent being the operative word, there. So, to my mind, "I think minorities should be turned into lampshades." is reprehensible and worthy of social sanction,…

We don't have to take your hypothetical as a hypothetical. After WW2 Germany banned books espousing Nazi ideology, and punished similar speech because they learned first-hand what happens when you let that ideology roam free. And free speech didn't die. Germany today is one of the freest countries in the world.

The "banning" of media that espouses Nazi ideology is actually very limited in Germany. Hitler's "Mein Kampf", for instance, is not actually banned.

Germany may be "one of the freest" countries, but they too now have far-right parties in their parliament and there have been hundreds of attacks (assaults, firebombings) on refugees.

Also, Neo-Nazi ideology is still popular in the East, despite all the efforts of the socialist government against it. If people are shoved an ideology down their throats, the alternatives suddenly look much more attractive. I'm firmly convinced that it is the left that got Trump elected, not the right.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#86

Post by ghoststories »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #76
ghoststories wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"These days it's women, people of all colours, they can say what they want, express themselves etc." They can only say "what they want" on account of their "oppressed" status. Everybody else has to censor their speech, for fear of offending those groups. Of course, they can't really all say what they want, but opinion dissenters from the "oppressed" groups are merely written off as "sockpuppets" (i.e. victims ) with…

You don't think universities are more open than in the 50's? There's a lot more dissent these days. I don't know about oppression on campuses.

I don't know what you mean by "open" or "oppression".

How about this?

http://www.thetower.org/article/in-the-safe-spaces-on-campus...

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#87

Post by clicea »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #40
just2n wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of perhaps no better example than this interview of why I like Peterson. He's criticized as "on the right" because he disagrees with feminism, neoliberalism, and marxism (it's more cultural marxism, which he calls neomarxism). That is a reactionary label, and it doesn't fit, which is precisely the problem with modern politics. A decade, maybe 15 years ago, Peterson would've been right in the middle of the…

“Cultural Marxism”is an invention of the right, basically it means any kind of change from the status quo.

No cultural Marxism is applying Marx ideas of class warfare to other areas. Basically, separating the population along an axis and calling one group oppressors and other oppressed. It haa nothing to do with changing the status quo.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#88

Post by thescribe »

gizmo wrote: post #58
ghoststories wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "more inclusive" actually mean? People are being forced to be overly accommodating to the sensitivities of certain "oppressed" groups, for fear of being ostracized and branded as horrible people. For example, if as a Christian you don't like the idea of gay marriage, you better not mention it in a group, unless maybe if you're Muslim, in which case your oppressed religious status allows that. It's a social…

You can't have a group that is inclusive of X and also of people who believe that X are subhuman, e.g. to be inclusive towards Jews you have to exclude antisemites. Or generally: to be inclusive of marginalized people you have to exclude the intolerant. If you don't push away the intolerant then those who are discriminated against figure out they're not welcome in the group and so they leave. Those who remain are the…

So we should all reject tolerance wholesale if we think at any point in the future website could be in the out group? The point is to jostling and get along with and not murder peole who's ideas we despise at our very core.

Tolerance is radical "choosing to get along" or why bother?

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#89

Post by skrebbel »

markdog12 wrote: post #68

Channel 4 interview with Peterson that's popular atm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Thanks. I watched it, and I love it. I really like how the interviewer did, she presented the feminist view pretty well, while keeping her cool.

Sure, she used her position as the one controlling the agenda well, quickly switching topics when pressed into a corner, but that's her job.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#90

Post by dogma1138 »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #46
tazjin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's opposition to one extreme of the spectrum, which doesn't necessarily place him at the (perceived) other end. As a very contrived analogy, you can dislike iOS and not be an Android fan.

I just don't see it - the universities being taken over by rabid leftists and such. From my point of view, things have changed, they're more inclusive, less deferential, more open and so on, all changes for the better, but obviously disturbing for those used to the old status quo.

You should watch this debate https://youtu.be/WsTuMmyHw8s
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