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The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

spectator.co.uk

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Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#61

Post by ghoststories »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #55
ghoststories wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "more inclusive" actually mean? People are being forced to be overly accommodating to the sensitivities of certain "oppressed" groups, for fear of being ostracized and branded as horrible people. For example, if as a Christian you don't like the idea of gay marriage, you better not mention it in a group, unless maybe if you're Muslim, in which case your oppressed religious status allows that. It's a social…

What I mean is 50, 60 years ago, a university was mostly white males, wearing suits, hats, mostly deferential. These days it's women, people of all colours, they can say what they want, express themselves etc. That's what I mean by more inclusive.

"These days it's women, people of all colours, they can say what they want, express themselves etc."

They can only say "what they want" on account of their "oppressed" status. Everybody else has to censor their speech, for fear of offending those groups.

Of course, they can't really all say what they want, but opinion dissenters from the "oppressed" groups are merely written off as "sockpuppets" (i.e. victims) with a chance to repent, instead of being declared an outright enemy.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#62

Post by bitoneill »

My first exposure to Peterson were through his YouTube talks on depression. It's a family disease in his case since he, his father and daughter all suffered from severe depression. His YouTube video with his daughter about how they were able to get help with medication was very interesting. I am very glad he seems to have recovered and has gone on to make an impact in other areas.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#63

Post by gizmo »

ghoststories wrote: post #59
Synaesthesia wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really so oppressive though? I'm glad trans and other people are getting more respect.

First of all, don't you know you should not otherize people? You better check your privilige! Sarcasm aside... they aren't getting more respect. You can't force people to respect anything. Here's what actually happens: People control their speech (but not their thoughts) around those "other" people for fear of social reprisal. They'll simply avoid socializing with those people for the rest of their lives. Will they h…

If an employer discriminates against gay/trans/black/Muslim job applicants because _other people_ did something they didn't like, then that employer is totally unreasonable. You can't blame anti-bigotry activists for that.

This is the "anti-racists made me racist" argument. Non-racists don't turn into racists when their behavior is criticized. That's absurd.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#64

Post by skrebbel »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #41
skrebbel wrote: post #4

I'm sad that some enthusiastic well meaning lefties often associate Peterson with the extreme right. If anything, this man is radically centrist. It's just that he debunks extreme right wing arguments in 5 sentences instead of the 2 hour long talks he uses to address what he calls neo-marxism. I think people like him might very well help keep disgruntled young men away from the extreme right, by offering a moderate a…

It’s when he refers to so-called “cultural marxism” taking over universities and political correctness being a huge problem that sets off warning bells for me.

I disagree with you and I'm sad that you're getting downvoted so badly. Your objections in this thread are common and reasonable, and they deserve reasonable responses.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#65

Post by mindcrash »

skrebbel wrote: post #4

I'm sad that some enthusiastic well meaning lefties often associate Peterson with the extreme right. If anything, this man is radically centrist. It's just that he debunks extreme right wing arguments in 5 sentences instead of the 2 hour long talks he uses to address what he calls neo-marxism. I think people like him might very well help keep disgruntled young men away from the extreme right, by offering a moderate a…

> I think people like him might very well help keep disgruntled young men away from the extreme right, by offering a moderate alternative.

I hope he does the same thing with people who are flirting with the extreme left. I hope many of them follow his advice and are smart enough to read and understand The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, and Explaining Postmodernism by Stephen Hicks.

We have serious problems in Western society, but the extreme "solutions" suggested by both of these parties will result in a complete and utter disaster for everyone. Even worse, we are even already seeing some of the effects of some of these "solutions" in action.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#66

Post by rendall »

gizmo wrote: post #58
ghoststories wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "more inclusive" actually mean? People are being forced to be overly accommodating to the sensitivities of certain "oppressed" groups, for fear of being ostracized and branded as horrible people. For example, if as a Christian you don't like the idea of gay marriage, you better not mention it in a group, unless maybe if you're Muslim, in which case your oppressed religious status allows that. It's a social…

You can't have a group that is inclusive of X and also of people who believe that X are subhuman, e.g. to be inclusive towards Jews you have to exclude antisemites. Or generally: to be inclusive of marginalized people you have to exclude the intolerant. If you don't push away the intolerant then those who are discriminated against figure out they're not welcome in the group and so they leave. Those who remain are the…

What you say is generally true, full stop.

However, the centrist objection to today's leftist critical theory post-modernist rhetoric is not (as is too often asserted) "well, a little anti-semitism / sexism / racism / homo- and transphobia / genocide advocacy is okay in the interests of compromise and harmony with Nazis". This is clearly absurd, and no one reasonably would believe this. Those who spout reprehensible ideas should suffer social consequences. By all means, do not invite them to participate in your community.

The centrist objection is that the Overton window of ideas that are acceptable to express is becoming increasingly narrow while the reaction to ideas outside of this narrow band of acceptability is becoming so extreme that people who are merely misunderstood will have their lives destroyed.

Never mind "Nazi". Never mind the well-meaning Christian who has no personal animosity towards individual gay people but who sincerely believes their God said that homosexuality is a sin; we're talking a misunderstood joke (Justine Sacco; the fellows who were fired for their overheard "big dongle" joke); we're talking people appropriately using the word "niggardly" (meaning 'miserly', in use since the 1400s).

Calmly stated ideas, even the most reprehensible, must never be suppressed through violence or state sanction. Throughout history, ideas that have moved us forward ("It's wrong to keep other humans as slaves.") were met at some point with violence and suppression. A climate where the majority are convinced that deviation from a narrow band of acceptability must be met with extreme violence will suppress good ideas along with bad ideas.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#67

Post by dwaltrip »

aalleavitch wrote: post #23
tomohawk wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. So If I insist that my pronoun is "his majesty" and others don't use it, that would be harassment? http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29230/ For those of us who think that objective reality is more important than what someone's feelings may or may not be, this imposition of a speech code is clearly harassment.

No. That wouldn't be harassment. Here is the Canadian legal definition of harassment: https://www.crcvc.ca/docs/crimharass.pdf Now, if I repeatedly followed you around, loudly mocking you and your use of "his majesty" and interfering with your life, then yes that would be harassment.

I'm confused. If someone requested a certain pronoun, and someone else politely but repeatedly refrained from using it, would that be harassment under the new bill?

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#69

Post by gizmo »

rendall wrote: post #66
gizmo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a group that is inclusive of X and also of people who believe that X are subhuman, e.g. to be inclusive towards Jews you have to exclude antisemites. Or generally: to be inclusive of marginalized people you have to exclude the intolerant. If you don't push away the intolerant then those who are discriminated against figure out they're not welcome in the group and so they leave. Those who remain are the…

What you say is generally true, full stop. However, the centrist objection to today's leftist critical theory post-modernist rhetoric is not (as is too often asserted) "well, a little anti-semitism / sexism / racism / homo- and transphobia / genocide advocacy is okay in the interests of compromise and harmony with Nazis". This is clearly absurd, and no one reasonably would believe this. Those who spout reprehensible…

The problem with your summary of the centrist objection is that it's false. The Overton window isn't narrowing -- it's expanding. Look at the last presidential elections. You had Bernie Sanders expressing socialist ideas and opposition to the 1%. Expressing those ideas used to be political suicide, but not anymore. At the same time Trump expanded the Overton window enormously to the right. Look at the political discourse in its totality and compare that to the discourse from just 5 years ago. Voices in the far right and far left are louder than they have been for at least a generation. How is this compatible with claims about a narrowing Overton window? It's patently absurd.

As for your remark about calmly states ideas: hate speech laws exist for a reason in most of the world. The United States is the exception in its free speech absolutism. A lot more harm can be done by calm speech than by a baseball bat, and free speech (like any other freedom) can be used to infringe on other people's rights. I value free speech but I don't value it over everything else, and I don't think State suppression of free speech is meaningfully different from the many other ways in which speech can be suppressed.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#70

Post by rendall »

gizmo wrote: post #69
rendall wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say is generally true, full stop. However, the centrist objection to today's leftist critical theory post-modernist rhetoric is not (as is too often asserted) "well, a little anti-semitism / sexism / racism / homo- and transphobia / genocide advocacy is okay in the interests of compromise and harmony with Nazis". This is clearly absurd, and no one reasonably would believe this. Those who spout reprehensible…

The problem with your summary of the centrist objection is that it's false. The Overton window isn't narrowing -- it's expanding. Look at the last presidential elections. You had Bernie Sanders expressing socialist ideas and opposition to the 1%. Expressing those ideas used to be political suicide, but not anymore. At the same time Trump expanded the Overton window enormously to the right. Look at the political disco…

"... A lot more harm can be done by calm speech than by a baseball bat"

Then it should be easy for you to supply even one example where calm speech caused a grievous head injury.

"...and free speech (like any other freedom) can be used to infringe on other people's rights"

I cannot imagine a single right infringed by someone else's free speech. Again, perhaps you can supply an example?

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