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The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

spectator.co.uk

21–30 of 93 posts

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#21
post #3

> In 2016 he made a stand against the Canadian government’s introduction of a law that aimed to make it a crime not to address people by their preferred gender pronouns (regardless of chromosomes). I'm pretty sure that's a gross misrepresentation of that law. From the little I know about it, I think it was more about adding "using the wrong pronoun" as a possible aggravating circumstance to consider when somebody is…

No, the widely accepted interpretation of that law is that, if I have a coworker who wants to be called xe/xem/xyr/xyrs/xemself, I have to comply or face punishment, since not be accommodating of this can be construed as harassment. Ideologues want to dismiss everyone who is against this law as transphobic, but this is demonstrably not true, one can be accepting of the human rights of trans people while simultaneousl…

That's not what the bill says, and that's also not how harrassment works.

None of this is an imposition upon you, and I have a really hard time understanding why people are so vehement that it is. I keep seeing people complain that they're not allowed to debate about something, and then they follow that with no actual debate. People act as though they're silenced, but they're clearly not silenced! If people respond with counter-arguments, isn't that exactly what you wanted?

I would love to talk about why I think these protections are important. I don't think not believing that these protections are important is some sort of moral failing. I think that frank discussion about these things is important and debating animatedly with my trans friends is exactly how I came to understand their point of view and the challenges they face and ultimately came to empathize with their position.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#22
post #6

To give someone a better idea who Jordan Peterson is and his experience with those in mass media: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/watch-cathy-newmans-ca... I knew of Peterson but never read his work nor heard him speak. This interview could be an important piece for university level discussion. I think it summarizes problems among the media and intellectuals like Peterson.

I can think of perhaps no better example than this interview of why I like Peterson.

He's criticized as "on the right" because he disagrees with feminism, neoliberalism, and marxism (it's more cultural marxism, which he calls neomarxism). That is a reactionary label, and it doesn't fit, which is precisely the problem with modern politics.

A decade, maybe 15 years ago, Peterson would've been right in the middle of the liberal camp. So would people like Dave Rubin. Today though, the modern left is falling in line with these feminist and marxist ideas even though they fundamentally contradict his long held liberal principles. People like me who aren't in some extreme position are described as malicious by these ideologies. I know it's nonsense because I can actually see what's in my head, and what they claim is true about me and about an entire class of people based on gender or race, is utterly false. The obvious response is "that's nonsense", but of course we're talking about people who are throwing labels of "racist" and "sexist" at anyone who dares disagree, so that's not a good enough response. We must be defensive, yet the irony of saying someone is bad because they're male or because they're white and then using those labels seems to be a little out of reach.

Watch this interview. Nearly every response she makes to him "so you're saying" is trying to ascribe some feminist or marxist ideal of how the world works to what he's said, and he simply repeats what he says. He goes to great lengths to explain his issues with these ideologies in various lectures, but you can see it here as a prime example, condensed into a comical and pathetic 30 minute interview. Everything wrong with today's left. It's not liberal anymore, she tried so hard to make him look like the bad guy, like he has bad evil wrong thoughts.

It's no wonder the situation regarding diversity at Google is so precarious, and this Damore lawsuit is just one of many to come if this mentality continues. I like Peterson because he opposes it and for good reason, not just in such as simplistic manner as ridicule and memes as you see from the right.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "it is illegal to use the wrong pronoun" interpretation is only widely accepted by those who have trouble with the definition of the word "discrimination". If I use the wrong pronoun when referring to someone it might rise to the level of harassment if I do it deliberately and repeatedly. It can't be a violation of an anti-discrimination law because it isn't discrimination.

I see. So If I insist that my pronoun is "his majesty" and others don't use it, that would be harassment? http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29230/ For those of us who think that objective reality is more important than what someone's feelings may or may not be, this imposition of a speech code is clearly harassment.

No. That wouldn't be harassment. Here is the Canadian legal definition of harassment: https://www.crcvc.ca/docs/crimharass.pdf

Now, if I repeatedly followed you around, loudly mocking you and your use of "his majesty" and interfering with your life, then yes that would be harassment.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#24
post #8
post #3

> In 2016 he made a stand against the Canadian government’s introduction of a law that aimed to make it a crime not to address people by their preferred gender pronouns (regardless of chromosomes). I'm pretty sure that's a gross misrepresentation of that law. From the little I know about it, I think it was more about adding "using the wrong pronoun" as a possible aggravating circumstance to consider when somebody is…

His conflict started with the Ontario Human Rights Commission policy which clearly includes gender pronouns. That is often getting mixed up with when he also spoke out against C 16 later, with different arguments. http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/policy-preventing-discrimination-be... I think you are right that just in C 16 there is nothing about compelled speech. My understanding of his position is that it's part of a slipp…

And then we'll start letting people get married to animals!

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#25
post #4

I'm sad that some enthusiastic well meaning lefties often associate Peterson with the extreme right. If anything, this man is radically centrist. It's just that he debunks extreme right wing arguments in 5 sentences instead of the 2 hour long talks he uses to address what he calls neo-marxism. I think people like him might very well help keep disgruntled young men away from the extreme right, by offering a moderate a…

The deplatforming program of the left is anything but well meaning. To many of them anyone who isn’t to the left of them is on the far right.

This has been reaching absurd levels lately where even people like Camille Paglia are being labeled as public enemies of the cause, heck I’m pretty sure if she would be alive today even Simone deBeauvoir would be painted as alt right.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#26
post #22
post #6

To give someone a better idea who Jordan Peterson is and his experience with those in mass media: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/watch-cathy-newmans-ca... I knew of Peterson but never read his work nor heard him speak. This interview could be an important piece for university level discussion. I think it summarizes problems among the media and intellectuals like Peterson.

I can think of perhaps no better example than this interview of why I like Peterson. He's criticized as "on the right" because he disagrees with feminism, neoliberalism, and marxism (it's more cultural marxism, which he calls neomarxism). That is a reactionary label, and it doesn't fit, which is precisely the problem with modern politics. A decade, maybe 15 years ago, Peterson would've been right in the middle of the…

Aren't you doing the same thing by applying "feminist" and "marxist" labels to the people you disagree with?

You're equally attempting to define my opinions and positions for me. So many of these arguments revolve around strawmen, on both sides.

Also, a person's biases are not something that they're self-aware of by default. No one has a perfect handle on their own brain.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#27
To me, it's a shame (and a sign of where media and culture are, right now) that the drama around pronouns and feminism are what people are jumping at with him. His teachings on the ideas of self identity, motivation, and the redefinition of religion as a system of archetypes and hierarchy are far more interesting and grounded in fact.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#28
Having been raised in fundamentalist Christianity, Peterson always sets off preliminary warning bells for me:

The enemy is all around you.

Access to secret "true" knowledge.

The world is corrupt.

A plan that if you follow correctly will lead to good things.

An enemy that alternates between specific and generalistic states.

Everything has to be framed through a set of ideological points at all times, which are reiterated in the otherwise minorist points of life.

That is not to say that he definitively is something of that kith or kin to that, necessarily. Just that I see several public figures these days that come out of one branch of science, platforming their knowledge of one field to the world of knowledge at large, and espousing thinking --- right down to phraseology, at times --- I have heard too often from sources these same individuals would claim to violently disagree with. Taking on Peterson's own postulations related to the co-evolution of the biological and memetic aspects of humanity (which in general I would agree with): I think the push to a what would otherwise be called a 'religious sensibility' can be --- and often is --- clothed in scientific language.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#29
post #6

To give someone a better idea who Jordan Peterson is and his experience with those in mass media: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/watch-cathy-newmans-ca... I knew of Peterson but never read his work nor heard him speak. This interview could be an important piece for university level discussion. I think it summarizes problems among the media and intellectuals like Peterson.

The main thing I picked up from the interview was the level of precision Peterson uses in thinking and discussing things - which I'd expect from a university professor. I might disagree with him on a few things, but I prefer to deal with such people.

The interviewer, however, was barely coherent and couldn't deal with that level of precision. And she kept bouncing all over the place. She was totally unprepared and kept flipping to tangents and not drilling down into one topic...

So to proclaim her as the typical embodiment of 'feminism' and use this as 'the perfect example' of why feminism (or whatever you want to project onto this) is fundamentally garbage... really only reveals your prejudices. At a surface level, the quality of the discussion or conversation was poor, so this video clip really is of low informational value.

I had a conservative friend who did this sort of thing - I'd try to get into the details of examining something (to try and get at the limits of a position or what caveats there are) and he'd do the same BS as the interviewer (though not as badly), oversimplifying things and deriving blanket principles from contrived examples. I guess that is the difference between philosophers and ideologues.

So I don't talk to him anymore - I got tired of the hassle and I'm tired of listening to how feminism is destroying society. It isn't. Society is morphing and change always upsets conservatives, because they are so fundamentally terrified of everything they can't control. Given how things are really going to go out of whack in the next few decades due to all the unstoppable changes coming, they are going to have to keep up or go extinct.

Re: The curious star appeal of Jordan Peterson

#30
I don't know how it happens but Peterson seems to always be engaged by the most logically challenged and intellectually dishonest individuals society has to offer. The recent channel 4 interview is the prime example of this. Now maybe it was all for show but the interviewer was utterly incapable of stringing even a few ideas together and at one point in the interview her mind visibly began to short circuit attempting to do so.
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