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What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

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Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#91

Post by jrs95 »

mcmacintosh wrote: post #56
jrs95 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is different! A mistake in common courtesy could cause one of these oppressed people to commit suicide. It has everything to do with pronouns and absolutely nothing to do with mental illness.

You’re not helping your case when you say that a mistake in common courtesy could lead to suicide.

I thought it would be clear I was being sarcastic but apparently not. This was really the point I was trying to make — that these speech laws really aren’t doing anything to address the problem.

Additionally, the idea that the incredibly high suicide rate is because of oppression doesn’t match up with other data at all. If this is true, why do whites commit suicide at 3 times the rate of blacks?

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#92

Post by stcredzero »

beat wrote: post #24

Thinking to his issue over pronouns... He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole . Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole. And this is the real headache with Jordan Peterson. He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for…

He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole.

AFAIK, he does use preferred pronouns.

Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole.

If one is faced with oppressive ideologues who refuse to engage in dialogue and just want to coerce you, the proper response is to stand up to them.

He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for thousands of followers, he's just providing intellectual cover for bigotry and emotional sadism.

I genuinely think that the critiques of Postmodern Social Construction are thoughtful and interesting. I also think they provide intellectual cover for bigotry and emotional sadism, dressed up as "activism."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj28qAS8MWU

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#93

Post by beat »

jnbiche wrote: post #83
beat wrote: post #24

Thinking to his issue over pronouns... He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole . Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole. And this is the real headache with Jordan Peterson. He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for…

There are some 4 or 5 new pronoun classes, totally over 30+ new gender pronouns recognized by some transgender rights activists. This UW LGBT Resource Center lists an additional 7 pronoun classes, totaling 35 new pronouns [1]. So imagine the typical college professor. They've got what? Three or four classes of up to 50 or 60 students? So you want them remember not only each student's name, but also which of these new…

It's very simple, really. You use what seems obvious, and if someone corrects you in one-on-one conversation, you finish the conversation doing the best you can to respect their wishes. And if you screw up, you apologize and self-correct.

We're not talking about 200 students in this case. We're talking about one on one conversation with one person. That's when pronouns matter.

Being unhappy about coercive regulation is an entirely separate issue from trying to do the decent and not terribly difficult thing. And using the coercion as justification for not doing it is, bluntly, an excuse. It's turning around and claiming yourself the victim of what you do to others.

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#94

Post by api »

mizzack wrote: post #23

I think the "danger" around Jordan Peterson goes beyond the pronoun debate. Individualism and wariness of ideological collectivism seem to be tenets of what he espouses. No surprise, then, that ideological collectivists are his most vocal enemies.

Why do so many fascists and racists like him then? They're collectivists.

(Not necessarily saying Peterson is a fascist or a racist, but that's a separate question.)

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#95

Post by m52go »

sremani wrote: post #20
chimen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "so you're saying" interview. Def. a good watch. Peterson handles it so good.

That interview is with Cathy Newman BBC4 Radio. Camille is OG feminist, the real deal. Not the 3rd wave Feminists, that are lying around in the media and academia now a days.

Exactly. I've only seen a little bit of her stuff so far but that's been enough to put her high on my list of people to check out more deeply.

I find this response from her hysterical:

https://twitter.com/100millionbooks/status/91309969607542784...

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#96

Post by jnbiche »

beat wrote: post #93
jnbiche wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some 4 or 5 new pronoun classes, totally over 30+ new gender pronouns recognized by some transgender rights activists. This UW LGBT Resource Center lists an additional 7 pronoun classes, totaling 35 new pronouns [1]. So imagine the typical college professor. They've got what? Three or four classes of up to 50 or 60 students? So you want them remember not only each student's name, but also which of these new…

It's very simple, really. You use what seems obvious, and if someone corrects you in one-on-one conversation, you finish the conversation doing the best you can to respect their wishes. And if you screw up, you apologize and self-correct. We're not talking about 200 students in this case. We're talking about one on one conversation with one person . That's when pronouns matter. Being unhappy about coercive regulation…

> We're not talking about 200 students in this case. We're talking about one on one conversation with one person. That's when pronouns matter.

Professors never engage in one-on-one conversation with their students? And they never refer to their students in the third-person within the classroom?

> And using the coercion as justification for not doing it is, bluntly, an excuse. It's turning around and claiming yourself the victim of what you do to others.

I don't think Peterson sees himself as a victim, at all. I think he's alarmed and outraged that proscriptive laws governing his speech have been passed. And as an American who's pretty happy with our 1st amendment, I agree with him.

I mean, forget for a moment that this is concerning transgender rights. If a country like Canada continues to outlaw certain ways of speaking, at what point would that concern you? Or would it ever?

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#97

Post by notconservative »

stcredzero wrote: post #80
notconservative wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. If being mistaken as the wrong gender causes someone significant enough distress to make them commit suicide, they need (and likely are getting) serious mental health attention. It is not the burden of anyone to cater to a stranger's mental illness. If you look vaguely male, I will say "excuse me sir, could I get past you?" (and "madam" for a vaguely female looking person). And there is no place where that s…

I get misgendered all the time, and I'm just some guy who never recovered from the 80's and 90's and still sports a ponytail. Once in South Carolina, I got, "Uh, sir, uh, ma'am, uh,..." -- That checkout guy never made up his mind!

And look! You're still here :)

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#98

Post by lliamander »

beat wrote: post #24

Thinking to his issue over pronouns... He's arguing that he should not be coerced into using preferred pronouns. Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole . Because refusing to use preferred pronouns isn't standing up to oppressive postmodern SJWs. It's being an asshole. And this is the real headache with Jordan Peterson. He may be thoughtful and interesting. But for…

> Ok, that's fine. But he should use preferred pronouns anyway, in order to not be an asshole.

Let me ask you, do you think requests for preferred pronouns are rooted in a correct understanding of human nature? Or are you merely accommodating something you believe to be mistaken so as to not hurt someone who likely be (on net) hurt by a more honest approach?

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#99

Post by hi-im-mi-ih »

api wrote: post #85
stcredzero wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It just feels too good to hear him talk in those maps of meaning lectures...just putting metaphors together and interpreting them as he sees fit in the moment. That’s why it’s so appealing. But quite often it’s not logic and even less conclusive. Pretty much like a TED talk. Actually, if you look up TED talks about how to be an effective speaker, you will find the advice to talk in simple language and to use metap…

"Pretty much like a TED talk. Actually, if you look up TED talks about how to be an effective speaker, you will find the advice to talk in simple language and to use metaphors. Also, they advise you to throw in sentiments to which your audience will agree." So intellectual pop chords and power riffs... As for the quasi-alt-right flirtation a while back I started calling a lot of that stuff "intellectual edgelording."…

How far we have fallen. We've got a long way to go

Re: What’s So Dangerous About Jordan Peterson?

#100

Post by tomsthumb »

upofadown wrote: post #89
tomsthumb wrote: post #8

It’s worth pointing out that Peterson is actually not against using a variety of gender pronouns per se. So many people get this wrong. He is against being compelled to use a variety of gender pronouns by legislation which is internally inconsistent, scientifically inaccurate, and additionally lacks clarity by punting process and standards to the Ontario human rights commission which can change their process and defi…

He actually wrote a letter to the administration of his university to state that if he had a trans student he would not be compelled to use their gender pronoun of choice. The admin told him, in so many words, to not be an asshole for no reason. He then published to response on the internet and played the victim. So he more or less had to create a controversy out of nothing. The great majority of people consider the…

> The admin told him, in so many words, to not be an asshole for no reason. He then published to response on the internet and played the victim.

This is a pretty low resolution summary of their correspondence. It’s also pretty easy to argue that his behavior is better described as refusing to play the victim. For him, the loss of his rights is more impactful than the consequences of not complying, so he refused to play a part in the quiet loss of his rights.

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