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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#201

Post by pasquinelli »

throwanem wrote: post #90
nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/ , if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US. So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we…

i remember when the panama papers first came out there was a story of a guy who bribed the leadership of some third world country to basically rob the country of its mineral rights. so with that $165 you'd also get relief from the damage they actively do with their money.

i'm not saying we should do it, but your analysis doesn't account for any knock on effects, and so is itself far too simple.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#202

Post by dalbasal »

jdietrich wrote: post #142
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

There's only one problem with that - it's not true. The author cites no sources for his claim and every source I've found contradicts him. The average number of hours actually worked has slightly declined in the US and significantly declined in Europe over the past few decades. In the broader historical arc, there has been a huge increase in leisure; the average working week throughout the 19th century was well in ex…

Inflation measures are supposed to control for improvement in product quality & quantity so that you can represent the GDP of 1852 in 2018 dollar terms.... In 1993, a macbook pro would have been very valuable.

If you have a time machine with 20 laptops in the boot, that's enough to let you live like Biff in the almanac timeline. Does that mean anyone with a macbook is a millionaire in 1992 dollars?

This is not a solvable problem. It works ok for YoY inflation (that's the point) but, the phrase '2018 dollars' gets meaningless as we try to represent earlier years. Saying we are n% more wealthy than people in 1300, is just cheesy journalism mostly.

Anyway (long preamble, sorry)....

Just like trying to adjust inflation by 70 or 700 years is difficult, trying to account for hours worked and/leisure is difficult. Too much has changed.

Woman joined the workforce. Children left it. Work got homework added. Training became more of a leisure time activity. Commutes got longer. Lunches got longer. The first one is probably the biggest.

Btw there's an illustrative thread running through both... Childcare and elder care. These were done at home (mostly by women) as non economic activity. Now these are jobs. The generate GDP, work hours... But, children were being raised before. They are being raised now. It just didn't used to be counted as GDP/work hours.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#203

Post by imron »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #85
Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

> Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it.

It's significantly better at it than the alternatives.

Even UBI. Sure UBI sounds great in principle, you'll be given enough to live on and you can spend your time doing whatever takes your fancy, but in large-scale practice I don't see it working.

Making the majority of the population dependent on the government for their income is not something that has historically worked well.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#204

Post by Robin_Message »

Grimm665 wrote: post #179
lbotos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)

> Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. Anecdotal, but I have visited a few of the Amazon warehouses in the Seattle area. I was surprised by the amount of effort Amazon went to to emphasize safety, work-life balance, healthy activities, and good work habits. There were free vending machines for PPE everywhere, and during the lunch hour each day, managers led workers in 2…

If I worked in a physical job, I don't think I'd want to give up twenty minutes of my break for a workout with my manager...

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#205

Post by ataturk »

amelius wrote: post #17

I want a world where it is more clear what we should work on. Most startups come up with solutions looking for a problem. Yet if people or companies formulated their problems more directly, we wouldn't have to guess at them. As a consequence, work would be more meaningful and more effective.

The problem is that most startups don't contribute anything useful to the world, they are either plays against venture capital or plays in an overflowing entertainment market, with the word "entertainment" defined very liberally. IOW, Google, Facebook, the whole lot are pretty incidental to the world.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#206

Post by eeZah7Ux »

clarry wrote: post #47
swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

> Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. I don't know about you but the homes, roads, cars, plumbing, healthcare, energy, food, an…

In many countries plenty of construction material (paint, metal...) and chemicals come from very poor areas: China, Africa & so on.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#207

Post by throwanem »

pasquinelli wrote: post #201
throwanem wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/ , if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US. So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we…

i remember when the panama papers first came out there was a story of a guy who bribed the leadership of some third world country to basically rob the country of its mineral rights. so with that $165 you'd also get relief from the damage they actively do with their money. i'm not saying we should do it, but your analysis doesn't account for any knock on effects, and so is itself far too simple.

Would you get relief? One government can buy another, too.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#208

Post by andrewmcwatters »

NoGravitas wrote: post #156

UBI is really only a stopgap to preserve the scaffolding of the existing system (and its inequality). What we really need is Fully Automated Luxury Communism.

Yeah, I don't want to set it up, but someone else should definitely get around to allowing me to live like a king without working at all.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#209

Post by machiaweliczny »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

Why not emigrate to country where you will have high purchasing power and wont have to work? Trap is only in your head.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#210

Post by gumby »

TuringTest wrote: post #97
gumby wrote: post #50

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, makin…

To be fair, money as a signalling mechanism is a useful tool, but it can't be as neatly separated from politics as libertarians believe. Most politically relevant agreements are either made behind closed doors or benefit from insider information, so their signaling does not improve market efficiency for all involved - just the well-connected clique; and the "creative accounting" by major firms is responsible for dist…

I didn’t say it would be the only signalling mechanism, I meant to split of the wealth aspect. Though again, when the robots can make paper clips on their own there will be less need for Big Paperclip to form a cartel.
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