The radical idea of a world without jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#121

Post by barrkel » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #116

ojbrien wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.

Perhaps the first derivative of net wealth is a better metric?

First derivative of wealth would be income or spending. I think it's better to go the other way: consider the integral of cash flows over time (i.e. net present value). It would still be pretty uncertain.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#122

Post by tonyedgecombe » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

aalleavitch wrote: post #20

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

Our success at combating strict gender roles that kept women out of the workplace hasn't been matched with a social embrace of stay-at-home dads or other family members who don't work in order to focus on helping care for their loved ones. Unfortunately, instead we've ended up with a society where everyone is just expected to work all the time. There needs to be less stigma against people without jobs. We need to sto…

I guess the market adjusts, in areas with constrained housing supply the prices rise to the level affordable by working couples, in other areas peoples material expectations rise.

In the end we have moved from women not being able to join the workforce to women not being able to not join the workforce. It doesn't seem an obvious improvement to me, although I should mention I'm not a woman.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#123

Post by wastedhours » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

svantana wrote: post #105

amelius wrote: post #17

I want a world where it is more clear what we should work on. Most startups come up with solutions looking for a problem. Yet if people or companies formulated their problems more directly, we wouldn't have to guess at them. As a consequence, work would be more meaningful and more effective.

What people want, say they want, and how they act are separate things. For example, no one has ever said "I want to spend hundreds of dollars on a pointless mobile game", yet that is what a lot of people end up doing. Conversely, people have plenty of problems that they are not willing to spend (enough) money on solving, at least not until it is socially common to do so. However, I think you're on to something here -…

In a weird way, how a lot of corporate tenders work. Like a "social RFP" if you will.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#124

Post by visarga » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #51

swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor. People in developing countries choose those horrible factory jobs because they're still better than subsistence farming. China is lifting huge numbers of people from abject poverty every year. Eventually wages rise.

> Such improvements tend to spread from rich to poor.

Best example - the mobile phone. Even the poor can get one that is better than the best smartphone of a few years ago.

Access to content has seen a similar trend - we now all have access to massive amounts of information, videos and online conversation. No money needed, so the poor get immediately the same level of access as the rich.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#125

Post by JulianMorrison » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #111

JulianMorrison wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

If everyone did what they wanted to do all of the time, the world would simply cease to function.

The idea being that we automate, design away or do without as much as possible of the scutwork and pay the remainder handsomely. Then people can do the things they like - which may well be highly useful, they just aren't what capitalism will pay for.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#126

Post by TuringTest » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #114

TuringTest wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a reason for ''some'' services not being done, not all services not being done.

Sure, I’ll grant that, but what of jobs that aren’t automatable, but are essential? If this is a serious proposition then we can’t handwave it away.

Your original question contained the assumptions that, with an UBI, no services will be created, and no one will be paid for services.

None of these are a necessary consequence of people receiving an unconditional amount of money regularly. People can still may want to work for luxuries, or I might want to pay others to sway their personal projects in the direction I prefer.

Plus, maybe some services may be "essential" only under the current working scene, but might become less so if everybody adjusted their way of life to a slower rate of consumerism (buying more virtual goods rather than physical, traveling less, working from home, buying local, etc). A lower income level could be sustainable under those conditions, if some percentage of it is guaranteed.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#127

Post by corey_moncure » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

lbotos wrote: post #108

swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

I've been calling amazon prime a "hiding of the poor" to my friends and family. Hide the laborers in a far off insanely demanding warehouse, you just get the goods. (I don't have prime, I don't use prime, and I don't want this to be our future.)

Yes, this is exactly it. Slavery was distasteful so we used the modern economy to abstract the slavery out of sight, hide it under the rug. One click buy! Pay no attention to the machine behind the curtain.

Wish Amazon would offer an entirely "Made in first world with protected workers" store.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#128

Post by hycaria » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:42 PM UTC

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

I disagree.

I work a full week at one job + 2 nights per week. Feel that I do a lot of unpaid stuff (ie taking care of the household, cooking, ...) but still endlessly hear about how other people "don't have the time".

The useful non paid things that people actually do are greatly overestimated imo, because more often than not it will end up in the "don't have time for it" even though they could manage to find time for it if they really wanted to. Just a matter of priorities.

I'm far from perfect, and I don't do sports (which I also consider an useful non paid thing) for an example. Yet I wish I did, and I totally could if I had some discipline there. But it's not having more time, or less work, that would change it.

It's hard and everyone is lazy and tired, and there are so many easy ways out of the present moment, but the majority really doesn't push themselves much.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#129

Post by vbuwivbiu » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

If work were disconnected from the profit motive then the quality of work would dramatically rise. The need to make money entails mediocrity and holds us back. Those with a love of their work aren't motivated by money and their love always leads to great works.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#130

Post by ciocan42 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:44 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I think this view of inequality is misleading. It put emphasis that the top richest should be not rich, or they are not good people. It's a defeating viewpoint that blames other for not having success.

When in fact top 10% richest helped much more people along the way than all average combined. And the consequence is being rich.

Instead of complaining about inequality (aka making the rich poorer), better to think about how to make the poor richer.