The radical idea of a world without jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#91

Post by JulianMorrison » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #61

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

Your dissatisfaction comes from looking to work for meaning. There is no implicit meaning—only that which you create for yourself.

The dissatisfaction comes from makework that displaces meaning. Without it, meaningful work could happen.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#92

Post by aalleavitch » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

aaron-lebo wrote: post #89

aalleavitch wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes "if your life sucks, just be one of the small percentage of people who succeed in overcoming the massive challenges stacked against you, there's nothing unreasonable about expecting that out of every individual". Unless, of course, you're saying we need to start a civil war to free all the office workers...

If your life sucks so bad that you're sitting on Friday morning posting to a place called Hacker News, then your life really doesn't suck that much. You've already got more than most ever had, so leverage that. Not a fan of learned helplessness or woe is me. If you want to change, you can. It might not be easy but if you feel like waiting until you die, there's not much to lose, anyway. What does saying "my life suck…

They're sharing their situation. Indicating to others that there's a problem is a part of getting it solved, and if that problem is systemic it's probably one we're all going to need to work together on.

The world isn't kind. But there's no reason we can't work to make it less so.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#93

Post by ForRealsies » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:05 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

swalsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

Exploiting cheap labor under the guise of free trade is a good start.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#94

Post by JulianMorrison » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #67

aaron-lebo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it. If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

Meaningful work doesn't grow on trees.

It actually kind of does. It just tends to come with starvation in the present society.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#95

Post by gaius » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:06 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #50

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, makin…

The final piece of course is the cultural reform required for UBI.

What will you spend your UBI on if the goods and services are not being produced, because no one is being paid to do them?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#96

Post by tarcyanm » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

You ought to watch "Zero Theorem" for some comic reflection...

That aside, I think work has been debased because the values of currencies have been debased by central banks. The 1% fully and significantly invested in the stock market may be feeling somewhat differently, though.

Also, I think to some extent that the tech dreams promised by my childhood have largely been replaced by corporate simulacra that are in no way as satisfying.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#97

Post by TuringTest » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #50

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, makin…

To be fair, money as a signalling mechanism is a useful tool, but it can't be as neatly separated from politics as libertarians believe. Most politically relevant agreements are either made behind closed doors or benefit from insider information, so their signaling does not improve market efficiency for all involved - just the well-connected clique; and the "creative accounting" by major firms is responsible for distortions in what companies are being considered efficient, again allowing a small oligarchy to gain market advantages even when nominally participating in a free market.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#98

Post by TuringTest » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #95

gumby wrote: post #50

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, makin…

The final piece of course is the cultural reform required for UBI. What will you spend your UBI on if the goods and services are not being produced, because no one is being paid to do them?

Why do you assume that not being paid means that no goods and services will be produced?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#99

Post by NiklasMort » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

ndh2 wrote: post #77

NiklasMort wrote: post #72

Unpopular opinion: It is easy to work less or nearly work nothing and still get by fine (in the context of the modern western world!), the issue is more that people spend their money in bad ways and make bad long term decisions. If you live reasonable and don't spend money on things you don't need you also don't need to work so much...And I often heard from people now "I don't even know why I work so much, I don't ne…

This depends a lot on what country you live in and whether or not you have children.

If you have children you can't complain if you have to work more. It is a decision, kids cost money, everybody knows that. Same goes for location to live in, what you eat, if you want a car...my point is : you don't NEED much. Most people could live comfortable with less work, the problem is people WANT too much and that is exacerbated by this throw-away society. What most don't get is: the world owes you nothing, you should be happy with the minimum, anything beyond not being hungry and having shelter is an WANT that's extra you don't NEED. People are spoiled

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#100

Post by nickthemagicman » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #90

nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

Well, using figures from http://time.com/money/4746795/richest-people-in-the-world/ , if we take the top eight, sum their fortunes (conveniently expressed in billions), and divide by 3.6, we find that a maximally equitable redistribution would allocate, to each of the lucky recipients, the princely sum of $165.38 US. So, I'm going to guess the problem may lie somewhere other than with eight really rich people. But we…

You're not extrapolating.

Thats just the top 8 people...Take the sum of the rest of the the global 1% or even 10% and do your math...

OH nm, the math has already been done.

280 trillion in global wealth / 6 billion people = 46k per person

And the top 10% has 86% percent of it, and the inequality is just growing exponentially.

I'm not advocating that wealth should be equally distributed OR that capitalism is all bad..however, that in-equality is STAGGERING....unregulated capitalism with no income redistribution is a one way ticket to a third world PLANET.

https://www.credit-suisse.com/corporate/en/articles/news-and...