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CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

theguardian.com

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Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#111

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

1024core wrote: post #106
sanderjd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't real…

> I frequently change my mind, Don't take this as a personal comment, but the ability to change ones mind based on changing facts is one of the characteristics of liberals. Conservatives, on the other hand, by definition are known for not changing their minds.

Perhaps we have multiple definitions of "conservative" in circulation. The definition with which I'm most familiar does not include a propensity for dogmatism

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#112

Post by 1024core »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #111
1024core wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I frequently change my mind, Don't take this as a personal comment, but the ability to change ones mind based on changing facts is one of the characteristics of liberals. Conservatives, on the other hand, by definition are known for not changing their minds.

Perhaps we have multiple definitions of "conservative" in circulation. The definition with which I'm most familiar does not include a propensity for dogmatism

I dunno, if you just go by the dictionary definition[1]:

disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change.

[1] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conservative

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#113

Post by michaelmrose »

reitanqild wrote: post #44
IIAOPSW wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

Works. Proof: me. I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions. Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.

From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid.

I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution.

I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense and yet obviously be capable of learning complex and difficult topics.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#114

Post by hulahoof »

mulmen wrote: post #97
Retric wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torture. Army's are trained to kill not Torture for very good reasons.

Are they though? Sure we say we don't torture people but given a realistic choice between taking someone alive and killing them don't we generally favor capture?

From a resourcing, cost and safety (for the captors) perspective - no.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#115

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

1024core wrote: post #112
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we have multiple definitions of "conservative" in circulation. The definition with which I'm most familiar does not include a propensity for dogmatism

I dunno, if you just go by the dictionary definition[1]: disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions, etc., or to restore traditional ones, and to limit change. [1] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conservative

I actually agree with the definition you posted. The distinction I'm drawing is this:

The definition you posted above cover's the characteristics of a person's actions, strategies, etc.

In contrast, I understood your earlier post to be about conservative's epistemic habits.

Those two things are certainly connected, but aren't identical.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#116

Post by fouc »

>“It turned out I knew two of the three Aero principals well,” Caison said during a tour around the airport the day before the commission’s hearings convened. “These were prominent, well-respected business people in our community. Their children and mine were schoolmates. I baked their gingerbread houses for Christmas.”

I had a crazy thought that Caison could have organized an intervention for each. Involve close friends & family & neighbours and sit down with one principal at a time. Encourage them to come face to face with the morality of this.

A small private non-confrontational intervention could perhaps bring about quicker change if the principal's suddenly realize their friends & family & neighbours are aware of the shady aspects of their work.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#117

Post by jancsika »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

That's a strange set of questions to ask. If I take you on good faith that you aren't merely trolling the commenter, it means that an affirmative reply from a pseudonymous respondent on the internet would quell or at least temper your incredulity. That seems like a very brittle and easily gamed way to decide what you do and don't believe.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#118

Post by adanto6840 »

matte_black wrote: post #88
mcguire wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" ...probability that a person doesn’t know something based on how long they’ve been actively tortured. " I, actually, have nothing I can say to that. Are you listening to yourself?

I do not doubt that there is some mathematics behind modern torture, we've come a long way from the days of gruesome medieval torture which was mostly punitive. Given the data we have on what has worked in the past, and cross-referencing it with a person's time under torture, we can reduce or even eliminate the intensity of torture after a certain confidence threshold has been crossed. Let's be clear, torture is an u…

For how long is that OK? Is it OK to torture someone until you've been able to achieve, let's say, six nines -- 99.9999% probability that they have no information for you?

Is it OK to go for 10+ nines, as long as our goal isn't to inflict pain -- and despite the fact that we are indeed inflicting pain, mentally and/or physically?

Just for the sake of argument, let's say that 99.99% can be accomplished in 24 hours of pain infliction (torture) -- and let's say you'll get to 6 nines in 168 hours (7 days).

Oh come on, who am I kidding -- as much as I appreciate the discourse, I can't even fathom or given consideration to it actually being something that can be realistically reasoned about in this way. =\

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#119

Post by code_duck »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

My own views have evolved based on conversations I’ve read and participated in online. I don't necessarily realize it at the time I’m still participating in the conversation, or stubborness may preclude me from telling the person presenting the opposing viewpoint that I decided to abandon my belief in favor of theirs, but i have been persuaded in the past. I assume this happens to other people as well.

One thing to note is that the beliefs you’re convincing people of don’t have to be top-level shifts like ‘be a communist instead of a libertarian ‘... one can help others see individual issues or political figures in a new light.

Re: CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

#120

Post by gcb0 »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #20
knz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking poi…

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

somebody did change yours.
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