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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#131

Post by bsder »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

> If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out.

Maybe.

But why don't those same people build companies that don't have this behavior and out-compete the companies that do?

It's not enough to eliminate the behavior, you have to eliminate the incentive.

To that end, founding a "service" to help me be diverse doesn't convince me. Founding a company doing something and blowing your competitors out of the water because your diverse employee base simply outperforms them convinces me.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#132

Post by Karrot_Kream »

smsm42 wrote: post #119
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> btw, if you think tech world is sexist and pigeonholing try watching TV ads... And the other aspects are not bad but just a normal imperfect human behavior. I didn't claim this. However, there's no correlation between sexist marketing and sexist work culture. On top of this, writing off bad behavior as "normal imperfect human behavior" is just an excuse to break rules. Two wrongs don't make a right. > Maybe if they…

> writing off bad behavior as "normal imperfect human behavior" is just an excuse to break rules Which rules? There are no rules saying "you can't do marketing" or "you can't claim to change the world". > Are you implying that the hyperbolic marketing of startups is a feature and not a bug? I am implying it's a natural consequence of a startup being oriented on doing something new, never done before, and natural cons…

> Which rules? There are no rules saying "you can't do marketing" or "you can't claim to change the world".

It was unclear to me whether you were suggesting sexism was under the domain of "normal imperfect human behavior" or not. If you weren't, then I apologize, I misread.

> I am implying it's a natural consequence of a startup being oriented on doing something new, never done before, and natural consequence of somebody being about to undertake a high-risk/high-reward activity.

I agree with this premise, but I'm going to argue that the vast majority of startup founders are not interested in actually changing the word and are using hyperbolic rhetoric to both appeal to a cultural standard in the industry and to convince their employees to work harder for less compensation and more uncertainty. If I take a glance at AngelList, the vast majority of startups are trying to fix small problems in niche fields. Admirable attempts no doubt, but changing the world they are not.

> So what? Why is it "toxic"? What's your problem with them believing it? People hold much more dangerous and useless false beliefs every day than belief that you can have positive impact on the world.

Because these people make it harder for qualified people with less rhetoric to gain funding. Because these people employ others who are convinced by their rhetoric. Gambling laws and Ponzi Scheme laws exist to stop greedy actors from exploiting human failings. My argument here is that joining a startup is akin to gambling, and giving them a free pass is akin to taking an amoral stance on gambling.

> Didn't I just admit there are some companies that are just hype in the very next phrase, and explained why this admission does not disprove my point?

Yeah apologies I wasn't super cogent here.

> There are lots of people that invest in all kinds of crazy stuff, from hipster juicers to high-stake poker games.

Again, there's regulation around high stake poker games and other such gambling because it's widely recognized that high risk gambling can be exploitative and ruinous. I don't see any such urge in tech.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#133

Post by tlb »

wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

The problem isn't tech-specific at all. But an article trying to cover all workplaces from medicine to trucking would be vague and boring. The authors are doing what good authors should: writing what they know, which is the tech world.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#134

Post by marcosdumay »

mpweiher wrote: post #39
geofft wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not totally sure "significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do" is the right summary - I agree that the report says that, of men who left , significantly more reported unfairness as a cause, but I don't think that that translates to more men leaving, or men being more likely to leave because of unfairness, or more unfairness towards men (i.e., "women being treated more fairly"). And ev…

Sorry, all the statements in the study would need to be qualified like that (and most of them much more), and virtually none of them are. I am assuming the study has taken some care to be representative. Otherwise, there's no need to talk about the findings at all.

It's not a matter of representativity. It's a matter of measuring a different thing.

The article measures shares of reasons between the people that left, but those are not correct by the share of people that left on each subgroup.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#135

Post by codinghorror »

tptacek wrote: post #121
wcarron wrote: post #111

I think this was well written. There were a few instances where, upon first reading it, I objected. But rereading it, I thought the language used was chosen well. I have one main gripe, though: The scope limitation to tech. > "Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well b…

In fact, it very probably is a tech-specific problem. Among the STEM fields, CS is almost uniquely imbalanced. STEM fields in general range from ~30-55% women, and those fields include things like Mathematics --- anyone who has gone to an academic cryptography workshop has probably noticed how many more women there are in the room --- which are strong proxies for CS ability. And, of course, among the professions in g…

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/06/chart-the-perce...

For web developers, it's 34%, which is roughly the same as dentists.

Computer "science" is kinda BS as a field.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#136

Post by lutorm »

reaperducer wrote: post #28
trhway wrote: post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

> has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where things have been different? Yes. It's the 1930's anymore. Especially in the last 20 years even grubby industries have come around to treating their labor with dignity. At least in part because of legal liability.

I guess you didn't read the NY Times articles about the working conditions for women in General Motors' factories?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#137

Post by rifung »

malvosenior wrote: post #108
geofft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The answer is and always has been to judge people by the output of their work and nothing else. Should it not be to judge people by the output of their work relative to their working conditions? I'm much more interested in hiring someone who operated 5 servers in a culture of manual configuration over ssh by introducing automation than someone who operated 500 servers by following existing procedures and using Ansi…

> Should it not be to judge people by the output of their work relative to their working conditions? No we shouldn’t look at that. I only care how you can produce in the role you occupy. To clarify by “output” I mean work output, not public display output.

> No we shouldn’t look at that. I only care how you can produce in the role you occupy.

Aren't you agreeing then? After all, you are looking at output given the role they occupy right?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#138

Post by vtempest »

tlb wrote: post #44

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much." If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out. So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand acc…

It's SJWs who are destroying freedom my always playing the victim card to have power over companies thru social shaming and acting really offended to scare you into apologizing or else you lose your job. Fuck this bullshit ends now.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#139

Post by DoreenMichele »

smsm42 wrote: post #12
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #3

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the…

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am.

I worked for a non tech Fortune 500 company. It was fairly cult like. It didn't really bother me because my father and ex were both career military, so I considered the cult like elements evidence of how unimportant the work was. The military isn't cult like. You take things seriously because lives are on the line and national security is on the line. Having been around the military helped inoculate me against the cult like elements of corporate culture.

I had some sympathy for why it was that way. Building a very successful company is kind of like magic. We don't really know how it works, yet it is life giving. These people had well paid jobs because... Magic. And working there meant that when I made small talk while ordering food or getting a haircut, people oohed and aahed that I worked there at all. Not everyone could get in.

But my work as a military wife, without even being in the army, had been more important. For me, it was a step down in intensity. It was just a job. Meanwhile, coworkers often felt working there was the biggest thing that ever happened to them.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#140

Post by malvosenior »

adamsea wrote: post #126
malvosenior wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, from Damore’s Google lawsuit: https://twitter.com/mjaeckel/status/950446329603461121

Ah, James Damore, the guy who thought he knew stuff. Seems like that is the worst possible example. It's like, self-defeating. It's like, yes, lets pick the guy who yet again wants to rationalize institutionalized sexism with bad science and thought it would be OK to tell his _coworkers_ why some of them are, scientifically, inferior to him. And expect for nobody to take offense to this and that he would not get fire…

Did you read the link? Those aren’t his words, they’re straight from Google employees.
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