Getting free of toxic tech culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#31

Post by kmicklas » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #16

QAPereo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve observed, the idea is to work in hell (edit: obviously hyperbole) until enough money is made to work on your own. Needless to say that doesn’t seem to be the majority experience. The carrot is money and security and the dream of fuck you money. The stick is being a code monkey who is still treated like shit, but who can’t even dream of early retirement and personal projects. It’s a shallow philosophy,…

I'm not sure conditions in most tech companies are adequately described as "working in hell". I mean, the article above mentions "free cafeteria, gym, yoga rooms, and all night snack bars", and in companies like Google it goes way beyond that, plus salary that is way over the average... pretty much anywhere outside banking industry? plus vacations, medical coverage, 401k and other nice stuff - and then on top of that…

They give you all that stuff to some degree to cover over how toxic the culture and job is otherwise. Leaving Google was the best decision I ever made despite the fact that I now get none of those things and make significantly less money.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#32

Post by geofft » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:43 PM UTC

daxorid wrote: post #19

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

Right. It's also been nearly three years since the men-are-hired-more myth was laid to rest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/1... But you need to bear in mind that facts do not matter . The subjective feelings of protected groups are the primary determinant of which other groups bear "toxicity", which is the secular term for Original Sin.

This report is about the technology/software industry - your link is about tenure-track positions in science departments.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#33

Post by MollyR » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:44 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

As a fairly old woman(mid thirties) for tech anyways and with a family now, I really feel your pain.

I get the ageist comments too, and contract work has really been dwindling. Web Dev really seems a young person game. If my husband didn't have a stable job, I'd be in a lot of trouble.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#34

Post by reitanqild » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:45 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

I'd rephrase that a little: it is not because you are a white male.

It wouldn't have helped if you were a minority either: in fact that can be even harder - at least around here.

But it is annoying in a special way to hear about that male privilege thing and know it means next to nothing - and still be told you should feel bad about it.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#35

Post by leroy_masochist » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

The tips in here on topics like building relationships outside work, being financially prudent and learning how to say no are all good nuggets of advice.

With that said, I thought that the article's title was kind of ironic because in my opinion, the intersectional identity politics espoused by the authors is itself one of the most toxic aspects of contemporary tech culture. It's the part of working at a mature venture-funded startup in SV that I miss the least, by far.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#36

Post by neveroffensive » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #22

OnlyRepliesToBS wrote: post #6

The moderation mechanisms are the very tools that enforce this cult-like mentality. And threat of suppression, of course.

Bit of an awkward moment for a searing indictment, as we'd just turned off flags on the OP. With suppression like that, who needs promotion? It's a common misconception, but Hacker News really isn't identified with or immersed in Silicon Valley. Those of us moderating it are largely on the margins of SV and always have been, and the community by no means has its center of gravity there. It's globally distributed and…

If you're actually asserting HN doesn't censor, and wouldn't censor even more if people actually felt free to express their true opinions here, I question you're intellectual honesty.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#37

Post by ojbyrne » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

I do find it interesting that the authors are ok with saying “Susan grew up on the Internet,” which is another variation on digital/internet natives, and clearly ageist.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#38

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

An important point here - every time I read "X% of class A had this happening to them" I automatically ask "what's the baseline rate? If you weren't in class A, would it happen to you more often or less often?" If I don't find this comparison - and usually I don't - then the number of X% is useless for the purpose of deciding whether class A is an outlier or not. Unfortunately, as I said, very small number of people quoting the statistics do this basic due diligence.

In this particular case, it is natural that people that believe they are treated unfairly leave, and conversely, if somebody left, one of the probably reasons is because they were unhappy, and one of common reasons of unhappiness is that they don't believe they were treated fairly. The question pertinent to the purpose of the article is do e.g. women have it worse? For that, one needs more than one number, so any claim that includes only one number is automatically disqualified from providing proper information - it provides no more than half of it.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#39

Post by mpweiher » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:48 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #27

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

I'm not totally sure "significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do" is the right summary - I agree that the report says that, of men who left , significantly more reported unfairness as a cause, but I don't think that that translates to more men leaving, or men being more likely to leave because of unfairness, or more unfairness towards men (i.e., "women being treated more fairly"). And ev…

Sorry, all the statements in the study would need to be qualified like that (and most of them much more), and virtually none of them are.

I am assuming the study has taken some care to be representative. Otherwise, there's no need to talk about the findings at all.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#40

Post by geofft » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 11:49 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #34

oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

I'd rephrase that a little: it is not because you are a white male. It wouldn't have helped if you were a minority either: in fact that can be even harder - at least around here. But it is annoying in a special way to hear about that male privilege thing and know it means next to nothing - and still be told you should feel bad about it.

As someone who firmly believes in "that male privilege thing," people who tell you that you should feel bad about it are wrong. There's nothing wrong with privilege.

It's a lot like privilege in the operating systems sense. sudo isn't a bad program because it has root privileges. The kernel doesn't need to apologize for running in a privileged CPU mode. But sudo and the kernel both have abilities that regular userspace programs don't - and the ability to cause damage that regular userspace programs don't. They (or more specifically, their authors) need to be aware that they're privileged, be careful about doing things with the privilege by mistake, and realize that other programs can't do the same things they can. But that doesn't mean that they can do everything, or that it's their fault if there's something they're unable to do, and it certainly doesn't mean that it's meaningful or productive for them / their authors to feel bad about the privilege.