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Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

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Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#81

Post by jonknee »

andys627 wrote: post #37
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries are similarly bad, yet still have cars; Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises. They tend to have excellent public transportation, however. There are also still cars in Denmark (no problem seeing them when I visited Aarhus), just not as many as in the states.

The thing is - 100% tax on cars is libertarian. You charge car owners something closer to the costs they cause to society. Compare that to the USA where we heavily subsidize car ownership.

I think fuel taxes, market rate parking fees and road/congestion tolling would be more libertarian. If you live in a rural area the impact of your vehicle is much different than if you live in the middle of a dense city.

Also, a $50,000 car does not have double the societal impact as a $25,000 car (which could be larger and less fuel efficient). Progressive taxes aren't a very libertarian construct.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#82

Post by andys627 »

jonknee wrote: post #80
andys627 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't much... $200/yr. For comparison: California $83/yr. Nevada $33/yr.

More comparison: Seattle $597 a year (just got my bill recently, vast majority pays for transit expansion)

Woah! Seattle and LA are majorly investing in transit. I'm excited to visit as they come online throughout my life!

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#83

Post by reaperducer »

andys627 wrote: post #77
colde wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there are an annual registration fee as well. Spread over to payments a year. It isn't much though, and it depends on how environmentally friendly your car is. I think the lowest rate is approx 200 USD pr. year.

> Isn't much... $200/yr. For comparison: California $83/yr. Nevada $33/yr.

Nevada isn't exactly $33/year.

When I lived there, even a small economy car, it was well over $400.

It's how many counties pay for schools instead of property tax. It's also why so many Nevadans get mad at the thousands of people from California who move to Nevada and don't register their vehicles, then complain about the schools that they send their kids to but don't pay for.

This web site shows that a two-year-old $25,000 car will cost $406: https://dmvapp.nv.gov/dmv/vr/vr_estimate/vrestimationinput.a...

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#84

Post by Reason077 »

ansgri wrote: post #39

I understand the viewpoint that less cars = better cities. But worse cars? Because this heavily penalizes buying better cars. I understand the need to segment the tax burden by income level, but it seems reasonable to make the maximum tax level so that, e.g. you pay flat €50k in taxes if your car costs more than €50k. You can play even the safety card here: more expensive cars have more advanced automation and safety…

Well, compare to the UK. Here we have low taxes on cars and are often incentivised to purchase new ones. This supports car manufacturing, which is a very significant industry for the UK, employing more than 800,000 people. New cars (dieselgate aside) are generally better for the environment too.

But aside from occasional temporary scrapage schemes, there isn't really much incentive to get rid of old ones. This not only results in congested roads but also towns and city streets that are cluttered with parked and often rarely-used vehicles occupying every available space and greatly reducing the "public realm" that could be used for other, healthier and more productive purposes.

So while Denmark's high taxes on new vehicles may not produce the best outcomes for the quality of the vehicle fleet, it does seem to have been effective at reducing the total number of vehicles.

Perhaps, like in Japan, annual registration fees/taxes should start increasing after the vehicle is a certain number of years old, making it expensive to retain ownership of old vehicles.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#85

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

andys627 wrote: post #37
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries are similarly bad, yet still have cars; Singapore and Hong Kong for example, which are otherwise libertarian paradises. They tend to have excellent public transportation, however. There are also still cars in Denmark (no problem seeing them when I visited Aarhus), just not as many as in the states.

The thing is - 100% tax on cars is libertarian. You charge car owners something closer to the costs they cause to society. Compare that to the USA where we heavily subsidize car ownership.

And... we are back to no-true-liberatarian.

In a libertarian utopia governments are not supposed to add taxes to neutralize negative externalities.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#86

Post by ucaetano »

ansgri wrote: post #56
ucaetano wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you pay flat €50k in taxes if your car costs more than €50k. That would be the same as capping income tax: you pay a 20% rate up to $100k of taxes, after that, no incremental taxes. It's the opposite of progressive, actually taxing rich people less than poor people. I'd even go and propose that cars over €50k should be taxed at a higher marginal tax rate than lower-priced cars.

Well, to extract welfare funding from rich people you already have income taxes (maybe even progressive), why exactly does one want to encourage a low-quality lifestyle?

Because expensive cars are luxury goods with negative externalities.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#87

Post by lumberjack »

Private vehicular taxation is really unjust when done in this way. Not everyone has the same usage patterns.

For example, I commute by bicycle. I would love to have a street legal van, in the eventuality that I want to move something bulky. I would use it once a month at most. Probably less. But I would have to pay thousands of Euros of road taxes just to own a street legal vehicle that is parked in my own garage. Why? Fuel is already taxed a lot to limit usage. Parking permits in cities are expensive to prohibit ownership and congestion. Why am I being taxed, exactly?

BTW, I know this is not a road tax in the article but same nonsense of assuming that ownership is the same as usage.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#88

Post by ucaetano »

ars wrote: post #63
ucaetano wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you pay flat €50k in taxes if your car costs more than €50k. That would be the same as capping income tax: you pay a 20% rate up to $100k of taxes, after that, no incremental taxes. It's the opposite of progressive, actually taxing rich people less than poor people. I'd even go and propose that cars over €50k should be taxed at a higher marginal tax rate than lower-priced cars.

There's a difference between taxing income and taxing spending. They are opposites, so the tax rate should also be opposite - the higher the spending the lower the tax. After all, you want to encourage wealthy people to spend and spread the wealth, not encourage them to hoard it.

> you want to encourage wealthy people to spend

Not on cars.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#89

Post by comcastic123 »

andys627 wrote: post #17
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

They're not excessive - they're more in line with true cost of car dependent society. In the US we shower subsidies on car owners. Some examples: using general fund money to build highways, charging low gas taxes that don't cover cost of maintenance of roads, providing free/underpriced parking in every downtown in the US, undercharging for pollution and other negative externalities of driving, requiring minimum amoun…

You add the expenses but not the benefits, which is having commuters go to their jobs, add value to the economy, and get income taxed.

Re: Soon, Cars in Denmark Will Only Be Taxed at 100% (2017)

#90

Post by comcastic123 »

msencenb wrote: post #54
charlesdm wrote: post #8

Now, I don't live in Denmark, but am I the only one here who wouldn't like (excessive) tax policies like that? A 180% tax (now to be lowered a bit) on a vehicle seems madly excessive. It's like a ban, without actually having the guts to call it a ban. I'm assuming most normal people are unable to afford a car then. I'm not a car nut (don't even really like cars, though I do own one and don't use it often) but wouldn'…

Personally I'm sad to see this lowered as I think it set up good incentives. High taxation in general, plus high car taxation, means that taxes will be allocated towards alternative transportation options. In Denmark this has meant bicycle infrastructure and culture which has been shown to make humans both happier and healthier. Not to mention that older cars means a lighter touch on the earth (heavy metals, fuel, et…

You claim that lower taxes makes inequality, but think about the poor people who would be locked out of owning a car if the taxes went up to some arbitrary amount - they literally wouldn't be able to get to certain jobs.
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