Getting free of toxic tech culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#51

Post by Karrot_Kream » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #12

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #3

> The refrain of how a startup CEO is going to save humanity is so common that it’s actually uncommon for a CEO to not use saviour language when describing their startup. Cult leaders do the same thing: they create a unique philosophy, imbued with some sort of special message that they alone can see or hear, convince people that only they have the answers for what ails humanity, and use that influence to control the…

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

> Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth.

> And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should think if you're getting into a startup, otherwise it's not worth the trouble, the stress and the extremely high chance of failure.

I don't think this should be an "of course". This article highlights toxic tech culture, namely a culture found in tech that is toxic. Marketing is not specific to tech, nor are small businesses. Why does Uber tell me they're going to "make transportation as freely available as running water" but not Loreal's new shampoo? Why does the small chain of bike repair shops in my area, also taking the stress and high risk of starting their own business, not exhort about how their bike repair shop will change the world of bikes forever?

This overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements are much more commonly found in tech than in elsewhere. This article discusses a culture formed by overboard marketing and out-of-touch mission statements and labels it as toxic. Moreover, there's an argument to be made about a field that oft labels itself as "meritocratic" relies on these hyperbolic forms of marketing and mission statements to do business, rather than a more traditional, "stodgy" business.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#52

Post by gervase » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:02 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #15

mpweiher wrote: post #9

As usual, the actual numbers don't back up the narrative. For example, significantly more men in the study left due to unfairness than women do: 40% vs. 31%. So either women are treated more fairly or these numbers don't mean anything, yet you would never know it from the text, which is all about the horrible things that happen to women. Hmmm...

The willingness to slog though abusive working conditions is one of the most highly-selected-for trait in tech. Mature people are, on average, are less willing to do this than young people of the customarily military age range.

I think this point (the military age thing) is often overlooked in discussions about [age|race|gender|socioeconomic] diversity in tech. Rather than a single problem, I think it's actually two separate, intersecting problems.

The first is a recruitment/sourcing problem. There are many demonstrable factors, such as educational availability or social norms/pressure, that serve primarily to influence entrance rates into tech among different groups.

The second problem is a retention problem. Other social and cultural traits, like the aforementioned willingness to "sacrifice for the cause", place work above family, and so on, are also not evenly distributed among different [age|race|gender|socioeconomic] demographics; I think these traits (or lack thereof) are more strongly correlated with leaving (or being forced out) of tech. To some extent, these might also serve as cooling effects for entrance as well, but I'd hesitate to make any claims about the strength of that effect.

Perhaps by explicitly addressing these two issues independently, rather than by evaluating a "where are we at this current moment statistically" snapshot, this issue can be tackled more effectively?

I think many current approaches fall into the trap of evaluating the snapshot, effectively saying "How has it come to this?!", and then trying to treat the symptom, rather than the cause.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#53

Post by QAPereo » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #16

QAPereo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve observed, the idea is to work in hell (edit: obviously hyperbole) until enough money is made to work on your own. Needless to say that doesn’t seem to be the majority experience. The carrot is money and security and the dream of fuck you money. The stick is being a code monkey who is still treated like shit, but who can’t even dream of early retirement and personal projects. It’s a shallow philosophy,…

I'm not sure conditions in most tech companies are adequately described as "working in hell". I mean, the article above mentions "free cafeteria, gym, yoga rooms, and all night snack bars", and in companies like Google it goes way beyond that, plus salary that is way over the average... pretty much anywhere outside banking industry? plus vacations, medical coverage, 401k and other nice stuff - and then on top of that…

Ah yes... perks. Makes those endless late nights a bit less awful. Plus you get to work on such wonderful stuff! The Juicero team is probably still swollen with um... pride.

Above average salary paired with wasaay above average cost of living and nightmare commutimg.

Plus a chance at striking it rich which is somewhere between playing Powerball and the nickel slots.

But hey, at least most of you love what you do, and wouldn’t choose to use your skills in a more productive way. I’m sure that a group who talks endlessly about FOSS doesn’t mind Google’s vision. Sure the FB team believes in privacy, but just one more pull on the slots!

Edit: @Dang

I disagree, and your dislike of my style stopped bothering me a while ago.

So save your breath for threatening people with orders of magnitude more time here than me with bans, and then hilariously pleading with their sockpuppets to respect that ban. I am not impressed.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#54

Post by dang » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

neveroffensive wrote: post #36

dang wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit of an awkward moment for a searing indictment, as we'd just turned off flags on the OP. With suppression like that, who needs promotion? It's a common misconception, but Hacker News really isn't identified with or immersed in Silicon Valley. Those of us moderating it are largely on the margins of SV and always have been, and the community by no means has its center of gravity there. It's globally distributed and…

If you're actually asserting HN doesn't censor, and wouldn't censor even more if people actually felt free to express their true opinions here, I question you're intellectual honesty.

People use the word 'censor' to mean so many different things, it's not possible to assert anything coherent in general. We do some of those things, there are others we don't do, and it's not as if any of it is secret. Some people like to ask questions about this stuff and get answers, others prefer to rage against the machine. To each their own.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#55

Post by geofft » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:06 AM UTC

daxorid wrote: post #41

geofft wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This report is about the technology/software industry - your link is about tenure-track positions in science departments.

...and engineering departments. I don't see any reason to suspect a sizable effect difference between the engineering industries and the academic environment which matriculates them.

The social dynamics in academia and industry are very different. And even the nature of the work is different - there are very different expectations about software quality, repeatability, etc. for even a CS researcher and a software engineer in industry, let alone for engineers in other fields. (Some amount of software engineering practice has been creeping into CS academia from shared points of contact, like open-source projects or students taking industry internships, but there's still quite a gap.) You're essentially not rewarded for your operational excellence at all in academia. You're not expected to have writing as a primary skill in industry. And so forth. Even if we ignored social dynamics, the day-to-day work is very different and attracts different people to start with. And the means of recognition and reward are also very different.

I would expect a limited effect difference if I believed that the primary reason people stay in/leave a field is because of their inherent aptitude towards the fundamental nature of the work - but I don't believe that.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#56

Post by platinumrad » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:07 AM UTC

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #51

smsm42 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in SV for a decade now and I am not observing anything cult-like. I haven't worked for companies like Google or Facebook or any other giant behemoths, so no idea how things are there, but in other places it's pretty far from a cult where I am. Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and befo…

> Of course, marketing sometimes goes a bit over the board, and each release of version 8.4 is the best thing that happened to humanity since v8.3 was released and before it's time to release v8.5. But that's kind of expected, nobody I know takes it as a literal truth. > And of course (almost) each startup CEO thinks his (or her) startup is going to change the world, or at least some part of it. That's how you should…

Of course Loreal doesn't make hyperbolic claims about transportation. Instead Loreal tells us that their new shampoo will be the absolute end of split ends or that their latest serum is literally "age-reversing."

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#57

Post by danso » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:07 AM UTC

neveroffensive wrote: post #36

dang wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit of an awkward moment for a searing indictment, as we'd just turned off flags on the OP. With suppression like that, who needs promotion? It's a common misconception, but Hacker News really isn't identified with or immersed in Silicon Valley. Those of us moderating it are largely on the margins of SV and always have been, and the community by no means has its center of gravity there. It's globally distributed and…

If you're actually asserting HN doesn't censor, and wouldn't censor even more if people actually felt free to express their true opinions here, I question you're intellectual honesty.

He literally mentions being on the moderating team so I don't know how you interpret that as him "asserting HN doesn't censor".

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#58

Post by camus2 » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:09 AM UTC

sotojuan wrote: post #46

trhway wrote: post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

Difference is that tech poses itself as "new" (i.e. different from old, traditional things/companies) and its leaders (actual business magnates or your average CEO) either indirectly or directly talk about making the world/people better. Therefore, when they do stuff any other company does (because they're just like any other company, surprise), it feels or sounds a lot worse. Also, stories on tech (maybe because of…

> Difference is that tech poses itself as "new" (i.e. different from old, traditional things/companies) and its leaders (actual business magnates or your average CEO) either indirectly or directly talk about making the world/people better.

No, a very few Silicon Valley businesses pose themselves as new and its leaders talk about "making the world/people better". These aren't representative of the whole worldwide IT sector, which is no more "feminist" than the coal industry.

> Also, stories on tech (maybe because of the above?) are trendier. No one cares if a factory or finance firm have toxic cultures (because we all expect them to?).

Many of the people here are too young to remember how Wall street used to be seen as a "left wing" sector in the 90's the same way "big tech" is now. Ironically shun by leftist activists today as the "personification of the devil".

Wall St finance used to be called the "new money" sector as opposition to the "old money" which was the core of the republican elite. And the same way, some financial companies and CEO claimed to be something new and make the world better. So the irony of your statement...

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#59

Post by reitanqild » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:10 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #40

reitanqild wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rephrase that a little: it is not because you are a white male. It wouldn't have helped if you were a minority either: in fact that can be even harder - at least around here. But it is annoying in a special way to hear about that male privilege thing and know it means next to nothing - and still be told you should feel bad about it.

As someone who firmly believes in "that male privilege thing," people who tell you that you should feel bad about it are wrong. There's nothing wrong with privilege. It's a lot like privilege in the operating systems sense. sudo isn't a bad program because it has root privileges. The kernel doesn't need to apologize for running in a privileged CPU mode. But sudo and the kernel both have abilities that regular userspa…

So, maybe male privilege exist, but so do female privilege:

In my childhood girls were never beaten. Boys were by each other.

During my studies girls got extra study points for higher education - just for being girls. IIRC this held true even for studies who were mostly girls anyway, like nurse and chemistry. (This has been fixed to some degree now I think so boys will now get extra study points if they apply for nurse studies.)

At work they count and celebrate how many women we have. In a way it feels obvious since we want equality. But lets not pretend it's 50/50 if two equal candidates come through the door and hiring one of them will make your stats look nicer.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#60

Post by QAPereo » Fri, Jan 19, 2018, 12:10 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #22

OnlyRepliesToBS wrote: post #6

The moderation mechanisms are the very tools that enforce this cult-like mentality. And threat of suppression, of course.

Bit of an awkward moment for a searing indictment, as we'd just turned off flags on the OP. With suppression like that, who needs promotion? It's a common misconception, but Hacker News really isn't identified with or immersed in Silicon Valley. Those of us moderating it are largely on the margins of SV and always have been, and the community by no means has its center of gravity there. It's globally distributed and…

You turned off flags, but now you’re doing something else yourself. You’re being honest, but not really telling the whole story.

Your thumb is very much on the scale however, where existing community sentiment doesn’t do the job.

Edit: I didn’t intend to be cryptic or confuse you. I mean just that proclaiming you’ve put one of many tools on the shelf for this thread in no way implies what you tried to imply.