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Getting free of toxic tech culture

blog.valerieaurora.org

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Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#41

Post by daxorid »

geofft wrote: post #32
daxorid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. It's also been nearly three years since the men-are-hired-more myth was laid to rest: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/1... But you need to bear in mind that facts do not matter . The subjective feelings of protected groups are the primary determinant of which other groups bear "toxicity", which is the secular term for Original Sin.

This report is about the technology/software industry - your link is about tenure-track positions in science departments.

...and engineering departments. I don't see any reason to suspect a sizable effect difference between the engineering industries and the academic environment which matriculates them.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#42

Post by smsm42 »

mpweiher wrote: post #25
jackgolding wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if any managers can answer this, how do, or do you deal with employees that act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? There have been so many times where I have worked beyond the call of duty and on reflection I don't know why I did it - there is a low chance of getting a bonus or raise compared to spending the time actually getting paid to do something and you are in your right to say no (to som…

> act within their rights and don't drink the cool-aid? Drinking the cool-aid is generally enforced. I remember working with some Swedes, who brought with them the (to engineers and fellow europeans) refreshing northern honesty/cynicism. Well...suddenly, after a trip to South East Asia to talk to our outsourcers (who were, er, "less than 100% effective") he suddenly started gushing in the typical corporate speak abou…

Maybe he already knew he is going to be promoted? Usually my experience is these things actually happen (i.e. decided) a while before they are announced, and if he knew he is going to receive a major promotion of course he'd think everything is wonderful!

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#43

Post by oceanghost »

ikeyany wrote: post #14
oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

Do you honestly think you'd even get to where you are if you were, say, black? Do you think you'd want to be a part of such a hostile crowd who assumes less of your ability and that none of your credentials are deserved due to handouts?

Opinions like yours always baffle me. Since a black person may or may not have had it worse? Should I be grateful? Contrite? Apologetic?

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#44

Post by tlb »

I predict people will claim "our culture isn't that toxic. Some of those things happen, but they don't bother me much."

If any non-zero subset of reasonable people are so offended by a behavior that they'd leave the industry because of it, we have to cut it out.

So don't ask "would this bother me?" Ask "would it bother someone?" And since you can't predict this from inside your head, you have to rely on firsthand accounts of people being bothered. This seems like a good overview of such accounts.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#45

Post by throwaway1748 »

tomlock wrote: post #29
throwaway1748 wrote: post #26

Could constantly identifying oneself as being 'marginalized' contribute to the feeling of being an outsider? As another commenter pointed out, the Kapor Center data is not nearly as damning as this piece suggests. Many of the reported reasons for leaving show similar numbers between genders & races. Sexual harassment is clearly a bigger problem for women than men, but not as drastic as this article claims. The Kapor…

It could. But what evidence is there of that?

I have no data here, just posing a question. I think it would be an interesting hypothesis on which to run a survey.

Personally, I've found that self-limiting beliefs have held me back in a number of areas — especially around confidence. Breaking past those has been very important in my life.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#46

Post by sotojuan »

trhway wrote: post #21

>What is toxic tech culture? Toxic tech cultures are those that demean and devalue you as holistic, multifaceted human beings. Toxic tech cultures are those that prioritize profits and growth over human and societal well being. Toxic tech cultures are those that treat you as replaceable cogs within a system of constant churn and burnout. has there been any factory floor, farm, private or government office where thing…

Difference is that tech poses itself as "new" (i.e. different from old, traditional things/companies) and its leaders (actual business magnates or your average CEO) either indirectly or directly talk about making the world/people better. Therefore, when they do stuff any other company does (because they're just like any other company, surprise), it feels or sounds a lot worse.

Also, stories on tech (maybe because of the above?) are trendier. No one cares if a factory or finance firm have toxic cultures (because we all expect them to?).

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#47

Post by jamiepenney »

untog wrote: post #11
oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

Of course experience isn't a bad thing! You having pesky distractions like children, however... how can you be trusted to put the company's deadlines first in a situation like that? It's just that... the thing is... you're just not a good culture fit .

From personal experience, this is the problem rather than age. God forbid you aren't purely a machine that takes money and produces vastly more money for the company.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#48

Post by geofft »

throwaway1748 wrote: post #26

Could constantly identifying oneself as being 'marginalized' contribute to the feeling of being an outsider? As another commenter pointed out, the Kapor Center data is not nearly as damning as this piece suggests. Many of the reported reasons for leaving show similar numbers between genders & races. Sexual harassment is clearly a bigger problem for women than men, but not as drastic as this article claims. The Kapor…

If I'm reading the Kapor Center report right (and please correct me if I'm not!), it's about the experiences of people who leave, i.e., it's already selected for people leaving. It's somewhat unsurprising that reasons are broadly similar among these people, and it doesn't really speak to whether (proportionally) more people from one group or another actually leave.

For instance, if 5% of people in category A leave each year, and 30% of people in category B leave each year, and 10% of each of them cite sexual harassment as the reason to leave, I would say that we have a much bigger problem with sexual harassment against category B. (And, at the same time, I would also say that anyone saying that category A doesn't face this problem at all / it's not worth addressing / whatever is wrong!)

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#49

Post by DoreenMichele »

Having read most of it, I think it could use a better title. The actual title sounds like it is smearing all of tech culture as toxic. This is not true. Maybe something a little more qualified, like "If your tech company has a toxic culture, this is how to escape it."

I got more out of this than I expected to. It helps explain my reluctance to join groups marketed as for women in tech.

I have a Certificate in GIS. I'm a blogger and have been for years, which makes me tech savvy compared to a lot of people I know. I am pretty comfortable on HN. But I am not a programmer and I never managed to get a job in GIS and I do not self identify as a woman in tech. I self identify as a writer, though I still hope to learn to code and would like to write an app or game or similar.

The working for free thing. I wonder how much this is experienced differently by different demographics. I did a lot of volunteer work as a military wife. I have personally struggled with the fact that, yes, people tell me they value what I do, but, no, they don't want to pay me. Pats on the head doesn't keep food on the table.

I am increasingly reluctant to do volunteer work. I am willing to contribute to not for profits, but in recent months I have been very up front about limiting the scope of it.

I looked over a bunch of websites for a non profit and wrote up a list of changes that need to happen. If they ever give me login credentials, I am willing to do the initial overhaul. I am not willing to commit to ongoing maintenance.

I would like to see these websites improved. I am willing to role up my sleeves and do something to make that happen. I am not willing to become slave labor.

I think this is sort of an unrecognized dark underbelly of things like open source. Someone needs to do the work and there is no mechanism for paying them.

The older I get, the more reluctant I am to accept the idea that someone needs to do work that no one will pay for. If you don't value it enough to actually pay me, then maybe it isn't really something you need or deserve.

Yet there are things I am still willing to do that I have no idea how to monetize. I am working on launching a project currently to help people, including homeless people, figure out how to develop a flexible income. I have no plans currently to monetize it, nor even set up a non profit. It's just me and a website and an email list and tentative plans to hold in person meetings.

It isn't that I won't do stuff for free. But I am much more picky about it being something I want to do, not something someone else wants me to do. I increasingly look narrowly upon the latter form of volunteer work as a polite request for slave labor.

Re: Getting free of toxic tech culture

#50

Post by sidlls »

ikeyany wrote: post #14
oceanghost wrote: post #8

I've written software for Intel, Nintendo, Samsung, LG, DirecTV, Applied Materials, Microsoft, and Apple to name a few. My last project was the basis for an entire business line at a 500m/yr company. I am unemployable because I'm a white male whose in his 40s, has a family, and because somehow, in this industry experience is a bad thing. It amazes me how intolerant of age and differing opinion tech culture is.

Do you honestly think you'd even get to where you are if you were, say, black? Do you think you'd want to be a part of such a hostile crowd who assumes less of your ability and that none of your credentials are deserved due to handouts?

That one group has it worse does not invalidate the lived experience of another group.
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