Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism • Hacker News Board

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#31

Post by donjoe » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 12:59 PM UTC

kmmlng wrote: post #30

mannykannot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In German, is it also used in a darker sense, as the counterpoint to envy? For example, an acquaintance goes on what would be your dream vacation, but is plagued by illness. I hope this article is not a sign that we are losing the word in English to people who want to affect erudition, as we don't have a good native substitute (and that is not because English speakers do not have such emotions!)

Without having more details, I generally wouldn't say one would feel Schadenfreude in your example. Now, if your acquaintance is obnoxious or is putting everyone down for not being able to afford their dream vacations, then yes, Schadenfreude would apply. In more general terms, you don't feel Schadenfreude whenever something bad happens to someone. There has to be a sense of "Well, that guy had it coming".

Yeah, right - you somehow need that 'haha, look at you'/'that serves you right' moment to call it 'Schadenfreude'.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#32

Post by mrec » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 12:59 PM UTC

mamon wrote: post #22

toyg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German has some awesome words: glockenspiel, gesundheit, blitz, panzer...

...Bundespraesidentenstichwahlwiederholungsverschiebung

...Rindfleischetikettierungsueberwachungsaufgabenuebertragungsgesetz

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#33

Post by indigochill » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:01 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #10

The author is essentially saying that criticism is a tool to hurt others. I find this idea interesting, and worthwhile to think about. A question I now have is, in this theory, who does one want to hurt exactly? Is it always the subject of my scorn I want to hurt with criticism, or is it more complicated than that - if I rant about Java on Twitter (I don’t do Java dev anymore), who do I want to hurt? Java devs? Oracl…

While I think there are critics who attempt to provide a balanced critique, I know I have provided criticism with the intent to harm. The reason is one of self-defense of a sort.

For example, I'm proposing a fraud detection system of my own design to address tricky issues in our product. Higher-ups want to purchase an existing system from a third party, which means I don't get to work on my pet project. They ask me for my input. At this point, my primary interest is in exposing all the flaws in their proposed system which render it unfit for purpose. I'll probably acknowledge some strengths just to make my argument more tolerable to them, but my goal is to persuade them to take my preferred course of action.

Likewise, if I rant about Java, it's probably because I would like to take some of the "mindshare" Java enjoys and move it to my favored language(s).

There are probably other reasons to want to damage something through criticism, but that's how I find myself employing it.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#34

Post by donjoe » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:03 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #19

cavanasm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, joy from inflicting harm is sadism. Author probably just wanted to use the word schadenfreude. It's a really fun word.

German has some awesome words: glockenspiel, gesundheit, blitz, panzer...

In German, you can combine a bunch of words to create a new one.

Feel free to read the full explanation on a pretty awesome example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizi...

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#35

Post by zerokernel » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

indigochill wrote: post #33

manmal wrote: post #10

The author is essentially saying that criticism is a tool to hurt others. I find this idea interesting, and worthwhile to think about. A question I now have is, in this theory, who does one want to hurt exactly? Is it always the subject of my scorn I want to hurt with criticism, or is it more complicated than that - if I rant about Java on Twitter (I don’t do Java dev anymore), who do I want to hurt? Java devs? Oracl…

While I think there are critics who attempt to provide a balanced critique, I know I have provided criticism with the intent to harm. The reason is one of self-defense of a sort. For example, I'm proposing a fraud detection system of my own design to address tricky issues in our product. Higher-ups want to purchase an existing system from a third party, which means I don't get to work on my pet project. They ask me f…

A piece of well-built criticism can be a great tool in corporate politics. It can completely destroy the chances of some proposal/project/person to succeed. Ideally without appearing to be personally oppossed. As usual, most people are (luckily?) not very good at crafting criticism and end up with a blunt and obvious argument which backfires frequently.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#36

Post by cirgue » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 1:46 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #10

The author is essentially saying that criticism is a tool to hurt others. I find this idea interesting, and worthwhile to think about. A question I now have is, in this theory, who does one want to hurt exactly? Is it always the subject of my scorn I want to hurt with criticism, or is it more complicated than that - if I rant about Java on Twitter (I don’t do Java dev anymore), who do I want to hurt? Java devs? Oracl…

I don't think it is about the people you're hurting (or more accurately, asserting superiority over), but the fact that you (or Tolstoy) are not one of them. The object of the schaudenfreud isn't the Java dev or Shakespeare fan specifically, but the dead-eyed hoi polloi, and if you enjoy Shakespeare/pit bull/Thomas Friedman you must be one of them.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#37

Post by trevize1138 » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #10

The author is essentially saying that criticism is a tool to hurt others. I find this idea interesting, and worthwhile to think about. A question I now have is, in this theory, who does one want to hurt exactly? Is it always the subject of my scorn I want to hurt with criticism, or is it more complicated than that - if I rant about Java on Twitter (I don’t do Java dev anymore), who do I want to hurt? Java devs? Oracl…

The issue I always take with people's first reaction to "criticism" is it somehow should only be negative. I see people who only provide negative feedback being, at best, lacking in their ability to truly analize something critically. Positive feedback isn't touchy-feely niceties to save someone's feelings. A lot of brilliance can be absent-mindely lost or discarded if the author isn't made aware that it's brilliant.

If someone creates something and only gets feedback about what's wrong with it they could be lead to conclude the entire work is worthless and throw it out. However, if you say "this part right here, though, is great and for these reasons. Keep it and do more of that" you've actually helped someone's creative process a whole lot more than just "this sucks, get rid of it."

If anything it takes more critical thinking and analysis to point out what's good about something than just ripping apart what doesn't work. 100% negative feedback is about as helpful as someone telling you "Yeah, I liked the story. It had some spelling and grammar errors but other than that it was good!" Great, you didn't tell me at all what you liked about it but then continued to tell me what spell and grammar check already did.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#38

Post by Vaskivo » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:11 PM UTC

manmal wrote: post #10

The author is essentially saying that criticism is a tool to hurt others. I find this idea interesting, and worthwhile to think about. A question I now have is, in this theory, who does one want to hurt exactly? Is it always the subject of my scorn I want to hurt with criticism, or is it more complicated than that - if I rant about Java on Twitter (I don’t do Java dev anymore), who do I want to hurt? Java devs? Oracl…

I think it is a bit more complex than that.

I think words (or opinions or ideas or whatever you want to call it) don't hurt people. People are hurt by words. By this I mean that if and how much a person is hurt by a specific set of words is entirely subjective and may be controlled consciously.

If I stab two people in the neck, it's pretty much garanteed that I've caused them harm. Not exactly the same but probably similar harm. But with something I said I cause extreme distress in some person while it is completely insignificant to another.

I usually don't try to atribute malice to people. So I try not to believe critics (or anybody) intend to cause harm by saying what they say. But I don't deny some say extreme thing with the intent of causing a reaction or ever harming some set of people.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#39

Post by walshemj » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

donjoe wrote: post #34

toyg wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German has some awesome words: glockenspiel, gesundheit, blitz, panzer...

In German, you can combine a bunch of words to create a new one. Feel free to read the full explanation on a pretty awesome example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donaudampfschiffahrtselektrizi...

I have used this to test a business directory to check how it handles long company names.

Re: Let Me Ruin This for You: The Schadenfreude of Criticism

#40

Post by meuk » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

I can't draw a sharp line between cultural and personal criticism.

As an example, I find certain genres of modern music distasteful for their lack of harmony and musical value. I can't really tell if this is cultural or personal criticism. Is this essentially the point that the author is making?