Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#41

Post by milliondollar » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

This is not an "article," it is an opinion piece, published in the opinion section of the Times.

An opinion piece is kind of like a Medium post- the view of an author with a clear point of view. Often explicitly by someone in the field or with an "axe to grind". This is a feature not a bug. They are giving experts a forum for debate.

An "article" should be more neutral, more widely sourced, and reports the opinions of others vs the author. (It goes without saying that this is clearly messy and you can't remove all bias.)

I see this frustration about "opinionated articles" incredibley often in critiques of opinion pieces in major newspapers and I can only assume that is because "how to read a newspaper" is a skill which is not taught and also because the web with its direct links makes identifying the differences harder.

The clue here that this is an opinion piece is the "Review" section of the NYT, and the identifying bio at the end about the author.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#42

Post by bjourne » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 3:15 PM UTC

I agree with the message. I think that it is our civic duty to ensure that debates are possible. Because when a society transcends into Fascism, the first thing that is lost is the right to disagree. If it becomes impossible to question the prevailing dogma and everyone who attempts to do so is labelled a traitor or worse, then the path to totalitarianism is open.

People should remember the Iraq war and especially the build-up to it. Debates were silenced by the rallying call to "Support our troops!" You couldn't claim that the war was a pointless hunt for oil engineered by the oil companies. Because that implied that the "war moms," those who let their sons enlist and fight the stupid war in Iraq, were doing something wrong. Telling it how it was, that whoever travels half-way cross the world to participate in a war against a people they should have no beef with, is committing state-sanctioned murder, was not allowed. I know that is polarizing, but polarizing is whatever a lot of people disagree with. It doesn't mean that it is factually incorrect.

So the next time the US rallies the dogs of war, remember Iraq and what made that war possible. Because it will happen again. When Trump, or his successor, decides that "something has to be done" about North Korea, Iran or Syria, do break the decorum. Don't allow disagreement to become taboo because then history will repeat itself.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#43

Post by jasonkostempski » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

My destop browser and RSS reader have links to NYT removed. Unfortunatley, the browser plugin I made to do it doesnt work on mobile Firefox and I havent cared enough to fix it. Every NYT article I've accidentally opened on my phone since has only reenforced my decision to put them in the list, especially when I see "Click to load full article".

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#44

Post by true_religion » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 3:24 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #42

I agree with the message. I think that it is our civic duty to ensure that debates are possible. Because when a society transcends into Fascism, the first thing that is lost is the right to disagree. If it becomes impossible to question the prevailing dogma and everyone who attempts to do so is labelled a traitor or worse, then the path to totalitarianism is open. People should remember the Iraq war and especially th…

Traditionally, once the decision is made to go to war, all debate about the justifications for the war must end.

Countries where the debate continues end up having a social split where part of the nation supports the war, and part does not. This kind of civil division is fatal during war time if your enemy isn't similarly hobbled.

Any war, even the most worthy, is susceptible to having its justifications criticized but the consequences of not being unified during the conflict are so catastrophic that people prefer to criticise wars only after they have been won or lost.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#45

Post by carlivar » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

Jotto999 wrote: post #33

hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

I block myself from all sites that Media Bias Fact Check has on any of their lists of biased sources. It has greatly improved my experience of the internet, similar to hiding YouTube comments. I'd rather waste a few seconds clicking an unreadable link, than waste a few minutes reading something I don't want to be influenced by.

I visited their site. I'm intrigued. I'm curious what sites you have left after doing this? Where do you find yourself getting world news, for example?

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#46

Post by dang » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 4:10 PM UTC

quadcore wrote: post #11

hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

I agree. I've submitted a Ask HN: ban nytimes lately - and got banned. Ive also sent an email to moderator asking for a feature that allows the ban of domains per user. Note that I've actually enjoyed this post, but anyway, if someone wants to read nytimes, he knows where to find it. EDIT: what's my opinion precisely you may ask? I think those are not hacker news per the guidelines. They are often general - good - bu…

You didn't "get banned". Users flagged the submission, presumably because it was off topic.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#47

Post by arglebarnacle » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #44

bjourne wrote: post #42

I agree with the message. I think that it is our civic duty to ensure that debates are possible. Because when a society transcends into Fascism, the first thing that is lost is the right to disagree. If it becomes impossible to question the prevailing dogma and everyone who attempts to do so is labelled a traitor or worse, then the path to totalitarianism is open. People should remember the Iraq war and especially th…

Traditionally, once the decision is made to go to war, all debate about the justifications for the war must end. Countries where the debate continues end up having a social split where part of the nation supports the war, and part does not. This kind of civil division is fatal during war time if your enemy isn't similarly hobbled. Any war, even the most worthy, is susceptible to having its justifications criticized b…

That's certainly true about total war where the nation's survival is threatened by defeat, but it's not true about the kind of limited wars was have seen since world war 2. In fact, because these wars are limited wars for the world powers that start them, but total wars for the postcolonial states in the receiving end, I think it's very correct that the public e.g. in the US continue to aggressively question the rationale for war even after it's begun in e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, and so on.

Henry Kissinger would certainly have been happier to see a US public united behind the Vietnam war effort because it would have made it easier to win in a geopolitical sense, but what about in a moral sense? The US wasn't threatened existentially by failure in Vietnam, and it's right that we didn't adopt the attitude expressed in your comment.

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#48

Post by bobthechef » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

muzani wrote: post #10

This is sort of why me and my wife pick fights with our kids where we can. We stress them to the point of snapping, then cool them down. It feels a little like bullying, but we cut back and emphasize that we still love them. My 5 year old daughter in particular inherits the stubbornness of both her parents. She often she says something she regrets immediately (e.g "I hate you!"), cries on realizing it, but refuses to…

> This is sort of why me and my wife pick fights with our kids where we can. We stress them to the point of snapping,

That sounds...healthy...

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#49

Post by bobthechef » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

hmwhy wrote: post #5

I really don't want to say this in an uncivil way but can people please stop spamming Hacker News with these articles full of cherry-picked scientific studies from New York Times or can their posts be automatically weighted less if their goal is to promote articles from NYT? It's really frustrating having to spend a couple of minutes to read seemingly interesting articles only to find out a few minutes later it's pro…

> I know plenty of people who have PhDs but what they say are far from credible.

Reminds me of fun quote from a polemical essay written by a professor from Boston College:

"I have verified over and over again the principle that there is only one thing needed for you to believe any of the 100 most absurd ideas possible for any human being to conceive: You must have a Ph.D."

Re: Kids, Would You Please Start Fighting

#50

Post by draw_down » Sun, Jan 14, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

My experience in the workplace has mostly been that people either aren’t interested in considering counterpoints, or react to debate/argumentation as if it were an attack. So, I don’t do a whole lot of it these days, at work at least.