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Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

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Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#51

Seems like something that should be in r/theempiredidnothingwrong. I went into this movie full on ignoring the metaphorical connections to the real world and let it exist in my mind as just an entertaining movie and story and to my surprise, it blew me away (although obviously far from perfect). Its interesting to see people pick this movie apart, as if the originals had perfect acting, no flaws, and were the epitome…

I just didn't think the movie was as 'fun' as the previous movies. I think the Disney movies are good movies, I felt like the Lucas movies were fun movies. All the rest of it is secondary to that for me.

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#52

Assuming this is at all serious (which I doubt), it would be a rather cynical, facile, and insipid reading of both The Last Jedi and history itself. The most egregious point (of the many to choose from that I could dissect) is the following: > But she has absorbed the rebels’ self-serving narrative, and it prevents her from realizing that the Skywalkers and the Rebellion—or Resistance, or whatever they are calling th…

>The answer is "not fascism." The Empire and First Order are fascist regimes. Fighting fascism is the answer. There is no perfect system. But systems that support the systematic oppression of all people via threat of violence are evil.

from the point of view of a regular citizen or a slave - the 2 fractions of the higher caste (consisting of, practically speaking, biologically different people, super-humans, basically almost different species), Jedi Order and First Order, are fighting for the power. Both sides are using super-power to enforce their will upon regular people. Somehow a regular person should be able to identify one side as not fascism, as not evil, and start to fight for it.

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#53
post #41

My biggest problem with the movie was using the hyperdrive as a weapon. Why couldn't that have been used on the first, second or third deathstar?

I had a hypothesis: the damage done by a ship in hyperdrive doesn't scale linearly with mass. Anything under a given threshhold is basically a mosquito bite, and large capital ships such as the one used in The Last Jedi are too expensive and valuable to be used in such ways.

Those ships are expensive because their ships. Complex redundant systems pieced together bit by bit by hand.

Throwing a hyperdrive on whatever mass you have handy is a whole different ball game. Unless the hyperdrive itself represents the dominant cost it should be at least two orders of magnitude cheaper going by the cost of ordnance vs the cost of a warship.

And even one order of magnitude would be enough. War is about economics as much as it is about winning battles. If you can force them to build ships that you can destroy at 1/10th the cost with no loss of life (people are a resource /Negan) you are doing good.

Ship to ship combat is not cheap or without risk either. Ships are damaged and lost and in a real war you can lose quite a few of them!

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#54
post #41

My biggest problem with the movie was using the hyperdrive as a weapon. Why couldn't that have been used on the first, second or third deathstar?

I'll steal a comment from elsewhere [1] that gives a perfectly reasonable justification for this. > A few hypothetical reasons why light speed attacks are not common despite being so effective: > - A capital ship's particle shields can usually tank smaller objects, like fighters, traveling at relativistic speeds. Only very large objects can attain enough kinetic energy to punch through the shields. However... > - ...…

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Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#55

Assuming this is at all serious (which I doubt), it would be a rather cynical, facile, and insipid reading of both The Last Jedi and history itself. The most egregious point (of the many to choose from that I could dissect) is the following: > But she has absorbed the rebels’ self-serving narrative, and it prevents her from realizing that the Skywalkers and the Rebellion—or Resistance, or whatever they are calling th…

I'd say that it felt like the movie wanted Rey to join Kylo. It was what it was building to. It would have fit with the taking-an-old-thing-and-twisting-it vibe of the rest of the film. The momentum of the film seemed in that moment to strain and fail against what I assume were the limits of how far off the rails JJ/Disney would let it go. It'd have taken what was already probably the 3rd most interesting and original Star Wars movie and given it a real shot at the #2 spot (A New Hope's nigh-unassailable in its #1 position, having created the phenomenon of the multi-genre pastiche film).

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#56
post #41

My biggest problem with the movie was using the hyperdrive as a weapon. Why couldn't that have been used on the first, second or third deathstar?

I'll steal a comment from elsewhere [1] that gives a perfectly reasonable justification for this. > A few hypothetical reasons why light speed attacks are not common despite being so effective: > - A capital ship's particle shields can usually tank smaller objects, like fighters, traveling at relativistic speeds. Only very large objects can attain enough kinetic energy to punch through the shields. However... > - ...…

I only think the last reason is actually reasonable. You can argue that all the other small ships that they sacrificed could have also turned tail and gave it a go, even if it was difficult.

However, the blast radius part wouldn't make as much sense, because the escape pods were likely fairly close, just at some orthogonal vector.

However, this is all besides the point. The real problem is that the hyperdrive weapon was never motivated and it introduces plot holes in past movies.

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a hypothesis: the damage done by a ship in hyperdrive doesn't scale linearly with mass. Anything under a given threshhold is basically a mosquito bite, and large capital ships such as the one used in The Last Jedi are too expensive and valuable to be used in such ways.

Those ships are expensive because their ships. Complex redundant systems pieced together bit by bit by hand. Throwing a hyperdrive on whatever mass you have handy is a whole different ball game. Unless the hyperdrive itself represents the dominant cost it should be at least two orders of magnitude cheaper going by the cost of ordnance vs the cost of a warship. And even one order of magnitude would be enough. War is a…

You bring up good points.

Maybe larger ships require larger, more expensive hyperdrive installations, and are more difficult to install - maybe it's not just a matter of bolting a hyperdrive unit onto something. There might be conduits you have to run all over and throughout the structure, there may be mass and balance concerns, etc.

I don't know enough about the SW universe to really back up my hypothesis. (One of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of the SW universe as a playground for the mind is that it's fairly inconsistent, and the Rule of Cool that another user mentioned tends to trump other considerations. In one sense it's freeing, and in another sense, any given work set in that universe is free to disregard large portions of previous works.)

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a hypothesis: the damage done by a ship in hyperdrive doesn't scale linearly with mass. Anything under a given threshhold is basically a mosquito bite, and large capital ships such as the one used in The Last Jedi are too expensive and valuable to be used in such ways.

Counterpoint: Why not slap some hyperdrives on an asteroid? Or otherwise accelerate a lot of (cheap and already widely available) mass. Regardless, I really enjoyed this scene because it falls well within the jurisdiction of the Rule of Cool ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool )

Well, we don't really know how hyperdrive works. Maybe there's a reason only starships are capable of hyperdrive. Maybe an asteroid would just break up immediately. Maybe there's a discontinuity between hyperspace and realspace so that they're not always 1:1. In other words, maybe it's extremely easy to miss or otherwise be unable to hit. The scene in TLJ is presented as a go-for-broke situation, after all. Maybe it's something that only works over extremely short ranges because deflector screens will bounce the attacking or defending ships out of the way.

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#59

Seems like something that should be in r/theempiredidnothingwrong. I went into this movie full on ignoring the metaphorical connections to the real world and let it exist in my mind as just an entertaining movie and story and to my surprise, it blew me away (although obviously far from perfect). Its interesting to see people pick this movie apart, as if the originals had perfect acting, no flaws, and were the epitome…

Its interesting to see people pick this movie apart, as if the originals had perfect acting, no flaws, and were the epitome of originality (were you expecting your life to change after watching this?)

That's not what I'm seeing at all. What I'm seeing is:

The originals, for all their flaws, established and maintained an expansive universe with internally consistent rules and characters. The plots made sense and plot holes rarely undermined the important story or thematic elements. The characters had consistent flaws and experienced growth and real character arcs. The new movies' plots' are barely coherent, shatter suspension of disbelief by constantly violating the rules and conventions of the setting, have characters that range from likeable but boring to annoying and unlikable, and include way too many awkward humor attempts with off-beat non-sequitors.

Luke Skywalker is an established character. He was a whiny, impulsive, stargazing youth who ventured into the unknown world beyond for adventure, experiencing struggle, hardship, and loss; finally overcoming those inner demons to rescue his friends (who had suffered because of him) and stand up to the Emperor and redeem his father. This is not to say that you can't turn him into a despondent, disillusioned recluse who casually considers cold-blooded murder, but you need to get him there somehow with a convincing narrative. What I'm seeing consistently is people do not buy the provided explanations. (Although one should also ask if this change really adds anything positive to the story)

The new movies, partiularly TFA and TLJ, completely unravel the established rules and established characters. And it's not that these rules are incredibly restrictive, there's volumes and volumes of Expanded Universe content exploring a huge range of themes and narratives and virtually all of them make a reasonable effort to respect and adhere to the established rules and characters in the Universe. (My favorite is the Thrawn Trilogy from Timothy Zahn, while others like Knights of the Old Republic video game...). Disney easily could have told broadly appealing Star Wars stories without violating all these rules and irritating old-school fans for no reason.

Could it be possibly that people are still holding onto the idea fed to those of us born in the 80's and onward that every one of us is "special", that our dreams will come true if we just believe in ourselves and never give up?

Well, the Rey character seems like the perfect icon for entitled Millenials. She's special just because she's her. She's a nobody but can do everything better than anyone with no effort so long as she has the self-esteem to act. Where Luke had to struggle and learn and grow Rey just mostly coasts.

Also note that young Anakin's narrative was essentially "the fall of a prodigy," so it made sense for him to be exceptional in many ways from the beginning. All the established Jedi characters observed him to be something special and unusual (midi-chlorians were stupid at the detail level, but at least it's purpose in the plot consistent with the story goals). Lucas even added a prophecy narrative to explain Anakin's exceptional powers. And even then Anakin still has to train.

Re: Millennials Strike Back: An Esoteric Reading of the Last Jedi

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: Why not slap some hyperdrives on an asteroid? Or otherwise accelerate a lot of (cheap and already widely available) mass. Regardless, I really enjoyed this scene because it falls well within the jurisdiction of the Rule of Cool ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool )

Well, we don't really know how hyperdrive works. Maybe there's a reason only starships are capable of hyperdrive. Maybe an asteroid would just break up immediately. Maybe there's a discontinuity between hyperspace and realspace so that they're not always 1:1. In other words, maybe it's extremely easy to miss or otherwise be unable to hit. The scene in TLJ is presented as a go-for-broke situation, after all. Maybe it'…

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