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World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

theguardian.com

271–280 of 284 posts

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that the growth is not there. But the sharing the growth corresponding to people's contribution. Do the super rich really should enjoy the wealth? Are those really justified? Do their employees has done proportionally smaller amount of contribution to only entitle to that much less wealth in salary?

Wealth != salary. Most wealthy people who got wealthy didn't get there by making a large salary, they (at some point) booked capital gains on something. Nothing is stopping you from venturing out into the world and setting up a business, and making your way into the 1%. Most work is commodity work. And in a lot of cases, you have a significant amount of people who can solve a problem. This results in a race to the bo…

> Nothing is stopping you from venturing out into the world and setting up a business, and making your way into the 1%.

Nothing except the 1%-ers who are pulling up every ladder behind them they can.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#272
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply and demand

You misunderstand supply and demand. Consumers can be (and are) priced out of the housing market just as they can be priced out of any market.

The other user probably did understand supply and demand. Consumers being priced out of the housing market can be a market failure. And in this scenario, it is a market failure. For every homeless person living in the street, there are 6 empty homes in the US, but a couple with 2 jobs and a down payment can't get approved for a home loan? Most definitely there is a market failure.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_failure

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#273
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply and demand

You misunderstand supply and demand. Consumers can be (and are) priced out of the housing market just as they can be priced out of any market.

As long as there's land to build on and materials to build with, all creditworthy consumers who wish to buy a house should be able to buy one. (I'm using should in a non-normative sense here.) It may not be spacious, it may not be in the best school district, heck it may be a condo and not a standalone house, but it'll be at a price they can afford.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#274
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're rich in the first place because they've contributed more to society than other people.

Sure, I have no doubt that they contribute more than others. But the problem is the ratio of their taking far outpace the contribution.

That's your opinion, what makes you the judge of other peoples social contributions?

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#275
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes things are better than they used to be. People living in bad neighborhoods spending time and money on entertainment need to prioritize better.

Companies spend billions of dollars in emotionally manipulative marketing campaigns in order to convince them not to prioritize better.

So are you saying that people need protection from themselves because they're too stupid to realize that they're being manipulated?

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#276
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you realize that taxing only consumption means taxing the poor a lot, and the wealthy almost nothing?

Who ultimately pays a tax burden does not depend on who sends the check to the government; it depends on the relative elasticities of supply and demand. The tax paid by people, wealthy or not, comes either out of consumption or investment. When people consume goods and services, the labor and materials used to produce them cannot be allocated to produce goods and services for other people. The same is not true of inv…

Unfortunately I don't have time for a full response, but:

* I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway

* In your extreme scenario, there would be an increased demand for food. Greater demand would increase prices. This would move the allocation of resources to food production from, say, Ferrari production. You would have more food production and poor people would eat better.

* The outcomes of taxation and other economic levers are never represented by monotonic functions. The optimal options are always somewhere "in between" the extremes, so saying "taxing at 100% doesn't work, so we should tax at 0%" is a fallacy.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#277
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who ultimately pays a tax burden does not depend on who sends the check to the government; it depends on the relative elasticities of supply and demand. The tax paid by people, wealthy or not, comes either out of consumption or investment. When people consume goods and services, the labor and materials used to produce them cannot be allocated to produce goods and services for other people. The same is not true of inv…

Unfortunately I don't have time for a full response, but: * I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway * In your extreme scenario, there would be an increased demand for food. Greater demand would increase prices. This would move the allocation of resources to food production from, say, Ferrari production. You would have more food production and poor people would eat…

> I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway

My intent was only to use it as an example. You can change the percentage to anything you want, as long as it is low enough not to have an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption. And if it has an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption, then you could do the same thing with a consumption tax so that wouldn't be an argument for taxing wealth over taxing consumption.

> In your extreme scenario, there would be an increased demand for food. Greater demand would increase prices. This would move the allocation of resources to food production from, say, Ferrari production. You would have more food production and poor people would eat better.

Indeed. But this is just as true if the spending on food is funded by a consumption tax. This is an argument for taxes, not an argument for income or wealth taxes over consumption taxes. I also believe taxes are harmful in general, but that's a separate point from whether a consumption tax should be preferred over an income or wealth tax.

> The outcomes of taxation and other economic levers are never represented by monotonic functions. The optimal options are always somewhere "in between" the extremes,

I don't see why this ought to be true and you did not provide any evidence to support these claims.

> so saying "taxing at 100% doesn't work, so we should tax at 0%" is a fallacy.

It is, but not for the reason you stated. Saying "taxing at 2% doesn't work, so we should tax at 0%" would also be a fallacy if the optimal tax rate happened to be 1%. This has nothing to do with extremes.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#278
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I don't have time for a full response, but: * I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway * In your extreme scenario, there would be an increased demand for food. Greater demand would increase prices. This would move the allocation of resources to food production from, say, Ferrari production. You would have more food production and poor people would eat…

> I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway My intent was only to use it as an example. You can change the percentage to anything you want, as long as it is low enough not to have an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption. And if it has an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption, then you could do the same thing with a consumption tax so that wouldn't be an argument f…

> Indeed. But this is just as true if the spending on food is funded by a consumption tax.

The problem is that eating food IS consumption. For very poor people, food is the main consumption. That's the bad of taxing consumption - that it naturally taxes more the poor, making them even poorer, than the rich.

>> The outcomes of taxation and other economic levers are never represented by monotonic functions. The optimal options are always somewhere "in between" the extremes,

> I don't see why this ought to be true and you did not provide any evidence to support these claims.

Of course, if you think that there should be no State - and therefore no taxes - you won't believe that. But if you admit that some public services are necessary (eg police, defense from external threats) then it's obvious that a 0 tax rate is bad - 0 taxes mean 0 public services.

On the other hand, 100% taxation would mean that there is nothing left for people to spend. That can't be good.

If the benefit from taxation is 0 at the extremes (0% and 100%), and non zero somewhere in between, then the curve can't be monotonic.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#279
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't want to tax wealth at 90%, that's a straw-man, but let's use it as an example anyway My intent was only to use it as an example. You can change the percentage to anything you want, as long as it is low enough not to have an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption. And if it has an effect on Warren Buffett's consumption, then you could do the same thing with a consumption tax so that wouldn't be an argument f…

> Indeed. But this is just as true if the spending on food is funded by a consumption tax. The problem is that eating food IS consumption. For very poor people, food is the main consumption. That's the bad of taxing consumption - that it naturally taxes more the poor, making them even poorer, than the rich. >> The outcomes of taxation and other economic levers are never represented by monotonic functions. The optimal…

> The problem is that eating food IS consumption. For very poor people, food is the main consumption.

Then tax consumption enough to pay for the food accounting for the consumption tax that will apply to the food. That the amount of money you need to pay for the food increases as the consumption tax used to pay for the food increases is not a problem as long as anything at all other than food is being consumed in the economy. (If it happened to be the case that nothing other than food was being consumed, that would just mean it isn't possible to supply enough food—an income or wealth tax wouldn't be able to change anything about this.) The consumption tax needed for the government to pay for the food will be lower than the income or wealth tax that would be needed for the same thing.

Taxing investment to pay for food is only going to work insofar as it reallocates resources from the production of whatever the investments were in to the production of food. A consumption tax can already do this reallocation more efficiently. If your goal is to make the economy produce more of food and less of other things, this goal can be achieved more efficiently with a consumption tax than with an income or wealth tax.

> That's the bad of taxing consumption - that it naturally taxes more the poor, making them even poorer, than the rich.

It only taxes the poor more in proportion to their wealth, to the extent a higher proportion of the wealth of the poor is consumed instead of invested, but not in absolute terms. In absolute terms, it is the reverse, since the rich consume on average more than the poor even if this consumption is less as a proportion of their wealth. The tax on consumption taxes your absolute consumption, not your consumption as a proportion of your wealth, so it does make the poor better off in relation to the rich.

> But if you admit that some public services are necessary (eg police, defense from external threats) then it's obvious that a 0 tax rate is bad - 0 taxes mean 0 public services.

Even if these public services could not be provided without taxes, the reason having no taxes would be bad would not be that it is an extreme. But public goods can be provided without taxes. For the police, courts and laws, chapter 29[1] of The Machinery of Freedom describes one way this could be done. National defense can be funded with dominant assurance contracts, as can many other public goods (even when they can't be made excludable), including lighthouses, scientific research, information goods such as books, software, or art, clean air, and free-to-air television. So even if some public services are necessary or even just desirable, it is not obvious that having no taxes is bad as they can also be provided without taxes.

[1]: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/Machinery_of_Freed...

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#280
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Indeed. But this is just as true if the spending on food is funded by a consumption tax. The problem is that eating food IS consumption. For very poor people, food is the main consumption. That's the bad of taxing consumption - that it naturally taxes more the poor, making them even poorer, than the rich. >> The outcomes of taxation and other economic levers are never represented by monotonic functions. The optimal…

> The problem is that eating food IS consumption. For very poor people, food is the main consumption. Then tax consumption enough to pay for the food accounting for the consumption tax that will apply to the food. That the amount of money you need to pay for the food increases as the consumption tax used to pay for the food increases is not a problem as long as anything at all other than food is being consumed in the…

You can't design rationally a new human society and expect it to work as designed. It's the same error that Marxists did.
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