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World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

theguardian.com

221–230 of 284 posts

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does someone having wealth stop anyone else from acquiring theirs? You may start out with less but there's nothing stopping you. Also all those capital investments are helping the companies and funds they're invested in, one of which could be your very own employer/startup/pension fund, etc.

A lot of them create their wealth specifically by destroying the ability of others to create wealth for themselves. There are human consequences to automating away entire industries in the time it takes someone to train for them. Wealth insulates the wealthy from it, at least until millions of people can't find work for long enough that revolution seems like a good idea.

How is that actually stopping anyone? It seems you're referring to "ability" as in skills and talents to meet some demand for work, but that changes as it always has throughout history. The world marches on, that is inevitable and we must all adapt, wealthy or not.

Someone is going to make progress eventually and it's often just a worker who creates automation or other innovation to change their industry, and as a result creates massive wealth for themselves. This is exactly the competition that the OP seems to think doesn't exist. That's before getting into details like how many new ventures take investment from the wealthy to become viable in the first place, thereby helping everyone involved.

I fully agree that the pace of change and inadequate societal policies can create harsh conditions at times, but the perspective that that the wealthy have taken everything and nobody else can have it is just a simplistic, inaccurate, and unhelpful outlook on capitalism.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#222
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wealth is, abstracted, control over resources. How does someone else controlling resources prevent you from obtaining resources? Well, because they control the resources. The entire concept of rivalry in economics is about this. Only in the case of resource that are not rivalrous does pre-existing wealth become a non-factor.

If you just redefine the word then there's not much of an argument. Resources are constrained, wealth isnt. You can create value somehow and generate wealth, regardless of what someone else is doing.

Part A) That isn't a redefinition.

Wealth is a measure of assets. Assets are, for the most part, rivalrous goods.

Ownership's most fundamental quality is the exclusionary right to prevent others to use or occupy the asset in question. Owning lumber, for instance, has value because it lets you prevent other people from walking off and building their houses with it.

Accordingly wealth is exclusionary by nature.

Part B) You might think that wealth isn't constrained, but it is.

You can't own more lumber than the sum of all of the forests and cut planks in the world. You can't output more human labour than the sum of the population on the planet can provide, and you certainly can't build an object which is composed of more minerals than our race can obtain. Will those limits increase over time? Sure. But that doesn't mean there's no hard top-end limit.

Even if we jump to non-rivalrous goods and you say "but I can create intellectual property at an infinite rate - those rights and assets aren't bound to physical constraints" - you'd be wrong again. The capacity to create and define non-tangible assets susceptible to ownership requires human labour. If you wanted to produce ideas for comic books, for instance, you wouldn't be able to produce a database containing the brainstorming of 10 billion people in a year. Because you don't have 10 billion people on the planet.

So even at your value maximizing best, applying the best possible combinations of resources, labour and opportunities, you still won't be able to create infinite wealth for all asset classes.

If you mean that wealth isn't constrained because you can inflate the value of the denomination it is traded in, that doesn't change the value of the asset itself - that's completely orthogonal.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#223
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of this opinion is coming from being involved in the management of companies vs news articles tuned to generate outrage so that they can generate clicks?

How much of your denial comes from benefiting from the immiseration of the poor?

I'm serious. Do you have first hand knowledge of what you speak, or are you just looking for someone to be angry at?

Also, looking at your comment history, you've literally only ever commented on the misery of the proletariat and related topics, which makes me suspect this is an astroturfing account.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#224
post #126

As capitalism matures, it's clear to anyone with a thread of financial literacy that most wealth is created through capital gains rather than salary. We're approaching a state (at least in developed countries) where productivity is so high, that you can literally park your money in 500 of the biggest businesses and you're almost guaranteed a 7% annual return (if you hold stocks for the long term). Using the commonly…

I agree with much of what you said, yet I just don't see it as all that bad of a situation. I still think there is a lot of upward mobility even in that scenario -- the smarter people I know earn good salaries and have nice lifestyles. Nicer than their parents, in most cases, mainly because consumer technology constantly gets better and cheaper. And there is still opportunity for risk takers to start their own compan…

> the smarter people I know earn good salaries and have nice lifestyles. Nicer than their parents, in most cases, mainly because consumer technology constantly gets better and cheaper.

This is because today's booming companies rely on brain power instead of manpower. What does the future hold for people that aren't smart or born into money? As we continue externalizing intelligence to machines, eventually smart people will start falling victim to the automation trend that killed "dumb" jobs.

As I see it, we really need to increase funding for higher education (including adult retraining) and revamp K-12 to make the most of intelligent people from all socioeconomic backgrounds, while also placing greater emphasis on trade programs and small businesses.

We'd also benefit from tariffs on imported Chinese goods, increasing domestic manufacturing (rather than waiting until free trade equalizes global quality of life).

> I'm really at a loss for what exactly I'm supposed to be feeling outraged about.

Personally, I'm deeply concerned but not outraged... I vote for sound policies and politicians that may avoid the next Great Depression, but I profit when the public votes for more unregulated capitalism.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#225
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem isn't necessarily capitalism, but market failure in housing. Economic laws dictate that anyone who wants to purchase a house should be able find one that they can afford (assuming good credit history, etc), instead through zoning and other measures regions like the Bay Area and others choose not to build.

> Economic laws dictate that anyone who wants to purchase a house should be able find one that they can afford Which economic laws dictate that?

Supply and demand

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., your $120,000 of capital gains/dividends isn't taxed at a high rate to you, but is taxed at a high rate. First the company has to earn a profit, and out of that profit pay state and federal income taxes (35% + state). Then it pays whats left to you, where you pay your 15-20%, making the total tax rate usually over 50%. Given that taxes on corporate income is a direct tax in investment, it's counterproduc…

I'm going to pick at one particular part of your statement; since while I generally agree with your thrust of "normalize cap gains and income taxes", this stood out: "Given that taxes on corporate income is a direct tax in investment, it's counterproductive, it reduces investment, and productivity gains that increase both wages and wealth" I've seen this stated in a few prior debates I've had on this topic, but I'd a…

I think discussions like this often devolve into religious wars, but I'll take a shot at it.

If you have a village of a hundred of starving artisans and workers, but no crops because they have no seed corn, you have high demand, but no capital, and so no one gets fed. Consumer demand isn't enough.

To address demand, someone must invest in production. Lets assume that the entire village has earned seed corn by selling their pottery but has no farming land. The villagers can eat the seed corn, so they do. But one day farmer walks into town and offers to give anyone 10x their seed corn in return for it, if they can just wait one growing season.

So now consumption is converted into investment. The farmer must get investment to have production. If the villagers tell him to just farm his land and they'll pay him in pottery when his crops are ready for sale, it won't work.

Now if the farmer has lots of seed corn, but the villagers died of starvation waiting, he's got no customers. He needs demand to make his investment valuable, otherwise it can only feed him, and he'll never get pottery or any other goods from it.

Consumption is the benefit of investment, and it helps drive more investment, but it's not the direct creator of it. Now lets assume the village and the farmer reach equilibrium. He plants enough crops every year to feed all of them, and they make enough goods that it's worthwhile to him to do it. Everyone's standard of living can rise as the farmer more of his excess seed corn every year an reinvests it to farm bigger crops, and the well fed villagers compete to make better goods to earn more food.

Now the King decides to tax farming output at 99%. The farmer can plant enough to feed himself and keep all of it, or plant enough to feed everyone, and only keep the same amount. Obviously he's not going to work 100x as hard for the same benefits as he can working just for himself. So we have demand, and capital, but we've broken the incentive for investing. So the farmer just plants enough for himself, and in the mean-time he sells all that extra seed corn to villagers for goods, akin to a rich son spending his inheritance. By next year the farmer is surviving, but no longer wealthy and the village is starving.

Keynes-iasts always want to focus on the benefits of demand, but it's only part of the story. Friedman-ists want to focus on investment, but again it's only part of the story. Laffer gave incentives a bad name, he was the Elon Musk of economic overpromising, but he was essentially right about their importance.

Our economy functions ok right now even though our corporate tax system is among the worst in the world and makes for substantial impediments to investments. The Republican bill lowers the rate significantly and allows for one time repatriation, but still leaves significant disincentives (and doesn't address progressivity at all).

Our economy would likely function better, productivity and incomes would increase faster, if we eliminated corporate income taxes. But our entire tax system would become less progressive if we didn't also address dividend/capital gains rates when we eliminated them.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#227
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class people can take advantage of those investment returns as well. How exactly do you define "middle class"? Because by the popular definition of middle class, these folks can not take any meaningful advantage of any sort of investment returns. Generally speaking, middle class people barely have enough money to house and educate themselves (they must take out large barely-sustainable loans to cover either/…

You're confusing what people can do with what they actually do. I've known people who make close to the median income and support 4 children, own a home, and still had enough savings to buy them all cars and pay for their college tuition. They have some amount of retirement savings as well, though I don't know how much. I've also known people who make nearly 6 figures and just spend all of their money. A more expensi…

The issue is specific to certain locations. Here's a research report authored by the largest bank in Canada on the point: http://www.rbc.com/newsroom/_assets-custom/pdf/20171221-ha.p...

Ownership costs in Vancouver and Toronto are sitting well north of 75% of the median income for individuals in those areas.

This isn't a made up issue caused by young kids eschewing spendthrift habits and buying all them dang newfangled iPhones rather than investing in equity building houses. It is an issue with the ratio of home prices to local median incomes.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is simple to understand: as population grows and technology grows even faster, there should be a steady stream of wealth increase. This has been observed as is obvious to everyone. However, if we allow the bulk of this wealth to be controlled by a tiny part of the population, we are creating a huge problem to current and to future generations. A hereditary oligarchy can be terrible to our civilization, and…

Not to say I disagree because I do think the wealthiest should contribute meaningfully to society. But when you say "without visible contributions to society." why should an extremely wealthy person have to contribute to society?

If a wealthy person earns their wealth, then they have benefitted from their contribution to society. If they are allowed to lock that wealth up multigenerationally, then they are incentivized to change the system to make it harder for others to do what they themselves have done, to the benefit of others who have also already taken advantage.

Society as a whole benefits much more when each generation has to earn the bulk of their wealth.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation of wealth, in various forms, is what adds "value" to the economy; rich people ending up owning/controlling that wealth isn't the same thing as those rich people having created that wealth. Edit: Don't passive-aggressively revel in victimhood. If you feel misunderstood, explain better - don't blame your audience.

Providing capital to those with talent IS providing value. Thats why entrepreneurs exchange a portion of their company for the capital - capital has value and helps the entrepreneur. Money doesn't appreciate in value by doing nothing. Once you have wealth you can use it to make more wealth by taking risk based on the demands of the market.

That is a much better comment than your previous one.

I would counter that right now, money is ridiculously cheap. Interest rates are breathtakingly low. There are enormous amounts of money running around begging to be borrowed. As such, if this system you posit was accurate, then the very wealthy would be seeing the smallest returns on their money for decades, as they effectively competed to be the lender/investor to the people creating wealth.

But that's not what we're seeing.

It's also not what we see with investing in the stock market; that provides nothing to a company beyond the first time a stock is sold (barring a secondary argument that there is value in demonstrating that people are trading shares in the company which makes everyone feel good about the company and there's a value in that), but the rich are seeing some fantastic returns on their money in the stock market, extracting a nice steady stream of dividends and capital value increases, without having given a penny to the company named on the stock.

As an aside and speaking purely from my own experiences, I draw more each year from the stock market than my country's median salary, and I'm generating no wealth whatsoever for that (although I expect some would argue that by not selling all my shares, I'm providing value and that's what I'm being rewarded for). I could retire and get by for the rest of my life, entirely on the backs of others. The rich do the same to a breathtaking degree.

Re: World's richest 500 see their wealth increase by $1T this year

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare the "regular" person of today to the "regular" person of 50 years ago. Is it easier or harder to afford basic foodstuffs? Do they eat out (luxury) more or less? If they own a home, is it larger or the same size? Who travels more? Who has better healthcare? Who spends more on entertainment? How much do they spend on the family pet? Who spent more time furthering their education? All of these are measures of we…

This is very shortsighted-claiming that all of these trends have to do with being richer, is simply absurd. Also, "regular" person? What age? Male? Female? What does that even mean? This is just utter nonsense. But I will humor you: > Is it easier or harder to afford basic foodstuffs? Processed foods are far easier to afford, but they are extremely unhealthy. As for other basics, many have gone up over the last 50 ye…

> This has more to do with advancements in medicine and technology than people becoming richer.

It's impossible to separate people becoming richer from advancements in technology. We didn't grow GDP by 77 times, because we work 77 times harder.

Improvements in underlying technology are what help us create more wealth. The problem is that the new wealth being created and benefits of that new technology is being shared so proportionally.

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