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Calling for a new approach to depression

theguardian.com

61–70 of 155 posts

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#61
I'm surprised to see this as "new" because there has been work published since the late 60's [1] and widely known since the early 90's [2] showing that depression is often no more and no less than "having depressing thoughts". That is, if you can persuade the person to believe that they don't have a good reason to be depressed, they stop showing signs of depression.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Seligman [2] https://books.google.com/books?id=qreACUdDAc0C

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#62

I'd like to think that medical professionals and academics in the mental health field have probably been thorough enough in their research to have looked at these finding over the years. I somehow doubt a person whose graduated in Social and Political Science and has no medical or scientific background might actually know what they're talking about in relation to this. Interesting thing about the author. He was a ris…

Try reading this : https://books.google.com/books?id=qreACUdDAc0C (the title is somewhat misleading because it is more of a history of experimental work done in the 60's and 70's in this field than it is self-help text).

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#63
post #51

There seems to be an increasing number of non-academic articles, essays and books that are expressing the idea that the Serotonin hypothesis of depression is flawed. It seems like the drug industry just picked up this idea in the 70s and has been running with it (to the bank) ever since Anecdotally, I have come to believe that SSRIs have a temporary mood-altering effect, possibly combined with a placebo effect that w…

Almost all antidepressants list the increase of suicide risk as a side effect, which is frightening. Zoloft for example [1]: > An increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (aged 18 to 24 years) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders has been reported with short-term use of antidepressant drugs. [1] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zoloft-side-ef…

From my experience, it's because as they kick in, you suddenly have energy and motivation you didn't have before, but you still have the suicidal thoughts until they become properly efficacious.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#64
post #36

Years of strict exercise, diet, meditation, breathing techniques, various forms of therapy, and numerous self-help books did not cure my anxiety and depression. 2 weeks after starting a low-dose (10mg / day) of Lexapro made me feel better than I had in 10 years. Don't be afraid of medication if other techniques fail. My life was ostensibly fine, with a good job, friends, and family. I had a chemical issue, which is s…

>My life was ostensibly fine But you said in a previous comment "I was working 35 hours a week at a startup and studying two difficult subjects at my university (computer science and Latin) while maintaining an active social life. I kept pushing myself harder and harder, and essentially collapsed". I think most people would burn out with that amount of stress.

I was paraphrasing a period of my life. I didn't go on Lexapro for 2 years following that. Before Lexapro I was doing all of the non-medical stuff I mentioned. No need to tell me that what I experienced is false - it's my own life, afterall.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#65
post #9

Why did my comment get flagged? I assume this was a mistake, so reposting: tl;dr: Many people diagnosed with depression are actually just sad because modern society is kinda lame. (The article argues this point cogently, and I agree with it.) [I slightly edited this because I think people thought I was saying that I think all depressed people are faking or something]

I found, over the years of being on HN, that there's a sort of forceful response that always comes to these types of comments about depression, along with downvoting. The responses say basically, "Don't talk about what you don't know. Many people have real, chemical depression, and your comment that it's a product of life circumstances is not helpful ". I was always a but puzzled about the regularity with which that…

Probably because there are many comments along the lines 'it's just life circumstances! Just change those!' without regard for the disabling effects of depression, the difficulty of unilaterally altering said circumstances, or known failures of prior attempts to do so. What's not helpful is to have people with little first hand experience of a situation offer a simplistic causal diagnosis and then treat the problem as solved-by-identification.

It's kinda like the conversation where someone is trying to describe a problem with a piece of software or UI trope, and people chime in with unhelpful workarounds rather than addressing the issue itself.

substantive discussion about facts or statistics or science

Given the subjective nature of consciousness, dismissal of anecdotal responses as counterfactual or invalid is intensely alienating to the depressed subject.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#66
post #51

There seems to be an increasing number of non-academic articles, essays and books that are expressing the idea that the Serotonin hypothesis of depression is flawed. It seems like the drug industry just picked up this idea in the 70s and has been running with it (to the bank) ever since Anecdotally, I have come to believe that SSRIs have a temporary mood-altering effect, possibly combined with a placebo effect that w…

Almost all antidepressants list the increase of suicide risk as a side effect, which is frightening. Zoloft for example [1]: > An increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (aged 18 to 24 years) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders has been reported with short-term use of antidepressant drugs. [1] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zoloft-side-ef…

I am also very disillusioned with the psychiatric profession. The way they prescribe drugs seems no better than guesswork. Two years ago my dad having what I recognized as parkisonisms and akathisia but the psychiatrist said it wasn't possible because they had stopped giving him haldol. But then when she saw him, she said why we didn't come sooner (it's always the patient's fault) and quickly prescribed akineton. This has helped a little, but he has never recovered fully. He had also been on various antidepressants since 1994, Cymbalta, Velafax, Quentiax, Seroxat, Mirzaten, Ladiomil, probably more. I mean, what's the use? What is the actual use of taking those pills for decades?

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#67
post #37
post #5

This explanation does not work for all types of depression. There are people who have wonderful lives, fulfilling jobs, happy families, who are still depressed. We need to be more careful in our language, the word depression has become overused, much like the drugs used to treat it.

That's how I've often described it before. Feeling like shit when your life is terrible is normal. Feeling like shit when your life is awesome is not. The problem is that the pill often works regardless of why you feel like shit.

I was very depressed because life was shit, and the symptoms were preventing me from fixing the issues causing it.

So I take antidepressants not to fix the issues, but to alleviate the symptoms so that I am able to take on the actual problems.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#68
One of the biggest reasons that antidepressant meds are the go-to treatment for depression in the US is reimbursement. This reason is a cause of another important problem with mental healthcare in the US: shortage of mental health providers

Reimbursement for psychotherapy has been getting squeezed in the last several years. Reimbursement for psychotherapy is generally based on time: i.e. $x for a 30 minute session, $y for a 90, etc. Reimbursement for "medication management", i.e. prescribing drugs, is not based on time, but generally is a fixed amount. So the more prescriptions you write, the more money you make. Psychiatrists therefore focus on meds rather than therapy, as the reimbursement rates for therapy can't support a practice. Many psychiatrists don't take insurance at all bc they don't want to be "medication mills", so they charge $200-600+ per hour for therapy and only rich clients can pay. Psychologists and other licensed therapists can't prescribe meds, so they do therapy, but often make less than $60-70k a year. People don't want to go into psychology / psychiatry because of the stress of dealing with suffering people without having the tools to help them, and then getting paid relatively little (compared to other health care professionals)

This results in much of depression and other mental health being treated in primary care. PCPs aren't trained that well in treating mental health beyond what pharma sales reps tell them, so they wrote an rx and call it a day. 70% of patients don't respond to the first trial of antidepressants, but PCPs don't really know how to handle this

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#69
post #51

There seems to be an increasing number of non-academic articles, essays and books that are expressing the idea that the Serotonin hypothesis of depression is flawed. It seems like the drug industry just picked up this idea in the 70s and has been running with it (to the bank) ever since Anecdotally, I have come to believe that SSRIs have a temporary mood-altering effect, possibly combined with a placebo effect that w…

Almost all antidepressants list the increase of suicide risk as a side effect, which is frightening. Zoloft for example [1]: > An increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (aged 18 to 24 years) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders has been reported with short-term use of antidepressant drugs. [1] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zoloft-side-ef…

I'd like to see some controlled studies with marijuana.

Re: Calling for a new approach to depression

#70
post #51

There seems to be an increasing number of non-academic articles, essays and books that are expressing the idea that the Serotonin hypothesis of depression is flawed. It seems like the drug industry just picked up this idea in the 70s and has been running with it (to the bank) ever since Anecdotally, I have come to believe that SSRIs have a temporary mood-altering effect, possibly combined with a placebo effect that w…

Almost all antidepressants list the increase of suicide risk as a side effect, which is frightening. Zoloft for example [1]: > An increased risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children, adolescents, and young adults (aged 18 to 24 years) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders has been reported with short-term use of antidepressant drugs. [1] https://www.drugs.com/sfx/zoloft-side-ef…

Like all side-effect warnings I'm pretty sure the warnings about increased suicide risk are only added after the drugs have been on the market for a while (and having accumulated a few lawsuits). As with the generic 'this product may contain nuts' warnings on food these smack of post-hoc ass-covering to me.

While my scepticism of 'alternative' medicine, magical thinking and general woo-woo is as strong as ever, my experiences of the last couple of years have really shaken the former certainty I used to express in the rigour of science-based medicine. I still believe in the method, but the execution seems to leave a lot to be desired. Not entirely unrelated, I'm reminded why I became disillusioned with my biochem undergrad studies - specifically the labwork. We were repeatedly told to ignore results that didn't produce the 'correct' result and were even docked marks for effectively honest reporting. Although I'm sure it was mostly crappy technique that was to blame.

Thanks for your kind words

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