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Why Am I So Lazy?

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Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#161

Post by somethingsimple »

dominotw wrote: post #92
bambax wrote: post #52

> I see this shit every day in other parents: “She hates to read!” “He’s lazy!” “She’s bad at math!” You are imprisoning your kid with your words, fuckers! That's spot on. It's really upsetting to hear people say that about children, especially people with authority (parents, grandparents). DON'T DO THAT! Or, if you have to do that (!?!) at least be positive. Don't tell a kid she's bad at math, tell her she's good at…

Wouldn't positive comments imprison also? You have to live up to the image that has been created. I know lots of Indian kids are drepressed and driven to suicide. My high school roommate commited suicide due to this.

Yes. Overly positive comments can have a negative effect as well, if not accompanied by the reassurance that it's ok not to be good at everything/screw up sometimes.

Also, a positive comment for consolation purposes ("but you're so good at it!" when they actually aren't) is dishonest and kids can tell (I know I could at least, and I know my daughter can).

There's a really good book that talks about this (among other things) called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk [1].

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GG0MXI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#162

Post by [deleted] »

iandanforth wrote: post #145

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and this article doesn't get close to them. It retreads stigmatizing labels, regurgitates useless advice, and provokes high confidence low value anecdotes. 1. Motivation is a chemical state. You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors.…

[deleted]

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#163

Post by kortex »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #147
iandanforth wrote: post #145

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and this article doesn't get close to them. It retreads stigmatizing labels, regurgitates useless advice, and provokes high confidence low value anecdotes. 1. Motivation is a chemical state. You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors.…

How about banning BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you're basically talking about ego depletion, which has come under fire in the past few years, with what little evidence there was for it coming into doubt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion

Irrespective of ego depletion hypothesis, dopamine is still one of the primary modulators of motivation, risk, decision, and impulse. Absolute levels of dopamine, ratios of various subtypes (D1 vs D2 vs ...), and differential activation, in the NA, VTA, and substantia nigra affect everything from the ADHD kid wiggling in his seat, to the gambling addict.

Unfortunately, things like dopaminergic drugs are a blunt instrument, and it's not as simple as "add adderall, get productivity".

The role of dopamine in risk taking https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4038955/

Dopaminergic Modulation of Risk-Based Decision Making https://www.nature.com/articles/npp2008121

Procrastination and Dopamine Receptor Density https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/intrinsic-motivation-an...

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#164

Post by canjobear »

iandanforth wrote: post #145

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and this article doesn't get close to them. It retreads stigmatizing labels, regurgitates useless advice, and provokes high confidence low value anecdotes. 1. Motivation is a chemical state. You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors.…

You attack pop-psychology for being unscientific, but cognitive behavioral therapy basically consists of training yourself to think that way and its effectiveness is backed up by many studies of many disorders.

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#165

Post by pavel_lishin »

oceanghost wrote: post #159

My wife is very similar to the person who wrote this article. She will not do anything she can procrastinate. Nothing. I personally think its some sort of insidious depression. It's destroyed our lives together, and I'm on the verge of asking for a divorce for the... 3rd time, except this time, I'm going to just file. It is absolutely impossible to have the energy for both people in a relationship. My health is suffe…

> Things are so bad that I have to make sure she eats.

That definitely sounds like depression.

I think I know what the answer is going to be, but have you approached her about seeing a therapist?

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#166

Post by justherefortart »

oceanghost wrote: post #159

My wife is very similar to the person who wrote this article. She will not do anything she can procrastinate. Nothing. I personally think its some sort of insidious depression. It's destroyed our lives together, and I'm on the verge of asking for a divorce for the... 3rd time, except this time, I'm going to just file. It is absolutely impossible to have the energy for both people in a relationship. My health is suffe…

Sounds like my first wife. Second wife is so much better with lessons learned from first.

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#167

Post by pavel_lishin »

sanderjd wrote: post #116
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In think this has been shown to get worse results than praising effort. I call my kids out for being lazy when they're being lazy. Examples from this morning "I don't know what the second rucksack is": meaning "I can't be bothered getting it out the rucksack, you do it for me", my answer "You just want someone else to do it, stop being lazy and get it yourself". Also "I can't do it [take off my boots]": meaning "I do…

I think there's an important distinction here: in "stop being lazy" it is a verb, an act which is temporary and can be overcome, while in "he is lazy" it is an adjective, an attribute which can all too easily be taken as an indelible personality trait. I think it's only the latter that can be harmful.

Reminds me of a part from Cryptonomicon:

> '"I don't like the word 'addict' because it has terrible connotations," Root says one day, as they are sunning themselves on the afterdeck. "Instead of slapping a label on you, the Germans would describe you as 'Morphiumsüchtig.' The verb, suchen means to seek. So that might be translated, loosely, as 'morphine seeky' or even more loosely as 'morphine-seeking.' I prefer 'seeky' because it means that you have an inclination to seek morphine."

> '"What the fuck are you talking about?" Shaftoe says.

> '"Well, suppose you have a roof with a hole in it. That means it is a leaky roof. It's leaky all the time—even if it's not raining at the moment. But its only leaking when it happens to be raining. In the same way, morphine-seeky means that you always have this tendency to look for morphine, even if you are not looking for it at the moment. But I prefer both of them to 'addict,' because they are adjectives modiying Bobby Shaftoe instead of a noun that obliterates Bobby Shaftoe."

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#168

Post by PragmaticPulp »

iandanforth wrote: post #153
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about banning BS psychology HN comments, too? It sounds like you're basically talking about ego depletion, which has come under fire in the past few years, with what little evidence there was for it coming into doubt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion

I respect the spirit of your response but no. Here are some interesting studies. One of many candidate drug evaluations - https://academic.oup.com/ijnp/article/17/12/2045/2910067 Dosage dependant effects and tolerance - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2530095/ Environment protecting against addiction - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22157144/ Edit - Couldn't find a good source for the bear thing. Apologi…

Reductionist arguments based on narrowly-scoped rodent studies are not appropriate in the context of long-term human motivation.

"Motivation is a chemical state" is a tautology in the context of psychology. Every human behavior and emotion derives from the chemical state of the brain. If someone is chronically unsatisfied with their life, would you reduce their concerns to "Happiness is a chemical state"? Stating as much does not add value to the discussion, nor is it actionable.

Likewise, in the context of human motivation it's not relevant to discuss rodent lever-pushing behavior following acute administration of large doses of high-potency DAT inhibitors. If someone is unhappy, would you provide links to studies showing that rodent display increased liking behaviors after administration of a potent opioid?

Stimulants like Adderall do induce generic motivation in the short-term, but that's not anyone is discussing here. Implying that stimulants are a source of motivation is dangerous advice. The motivational effects are largely temporary, and quickly give way to tolerance. Note that the attention-improving effects mostly remain in this case.

Drug abusers who seek motivation-boosting effects from stimulants either give up after tolerance sets in, or they settle into patterns of dose escalation in a futile attempt to outrun tolerance.

Dopaminergic stimulant abusers often have extremely high motivation during their binges, but it does not translate to anything useful after marathon obsessive cleaning sessions or internet binges. That's because motivation, in the context of what we're discussing here, is far more complex than just modulating your brain's dopaminergic systems with chemicals. Motivation is a much broader topic that involves discipline, goal-oriented behavior, prioritization, self-reflection, and many other complex phenomena that can't be reduced into a singular brain chemical like dopamine.

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#169

Post by whatshisface »

oceanghost wrote: post #159

My wife is very similar to the person who wrote this article. She will not do anything she can procrastinate. Nothing. I personally think its some sort of insidious depression. It's destroyed our lives together, and I'm on the verge of asking for a divorce for the... 3rd time, except this time, I'm going to just file. It is absolutely impossible to have the energy for both people in a relationship. My health is suffe…

> Successful

Does she show motivation 9-5? If so there might be an answer that's more elaborate than "broad chemical imbalance," and a solution a lot more emotionally tractable than a divorce.

Re: Why Am I So Lazy?

#170

Post by PragmaticPulp »

iandanforth wrote: post #145

Warning - rant. I wish HN would ban BS psychology articles. There are real, scientific, actionable steps to understanding perceived motivational deficit and this article doesn't get close to them. It retreads stigmatizing labels, regurgitates useless advice, and provokes high confidence low value anecdotes. 1. Motivation is a chemical state. You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors.…

Neurotransmitter reductionism is not a useful framework for thinking about motivation. By your definition, every human behavior is a chemical state. That's not a helpful distinction.

> You can induce motivation generically through dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

This is dangerous advice, implied or otherwise. You cannot use dopaminergic drugs to modulate motivation in the long-term due to rapid tolerance to the motivational effects of stimulants. Yes, an acute dose of Adderall will provide a burst of energy, but it won't magically motivate you to channel that energy into building a new startup instead of intensely focusing on a video game for the next 6 hours.

Stimulants are not a long-term solution to motivation problems for the same reasons that opioids are not a solution to depression. Motivation, happiness, and contentment are all very complex phenomena that cannot be reduced to singular chemicals in the brain. It's true that you can temporarily induce feelings with certain drugs, such as a burst of euphoria from a dose of opioids, but the brain rapidly adjusts to those chemical modulators.

Opioids have their place in chronic pain treatment, of course, just as Adderall has its place in chronic ADHD treatment. But we must be clear that the mood and motivation boosting effects of these drugs are a temporary side effect, not a sustainable feature.

Motivation is a much more complex phenomenon that is deeply intertwined with human psychology. Dismissing those complexities as simple chemical states that are well-understand from rodent studies is missing the point.

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