Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#11

Post by jsjohnst » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 2:40 PM UTC

aerodog wrote: post #6

So what do we do if the CBP asks us to hand our devices over? Is there any way we can tell them to fly a kite?

Are you a US Citizen? Are you willing to temporarily (temporarily in this case is not implying a short duration, btw) lose your device? Are you able to waste time (as in hours or unlikely but possibly days) at CBP defending your rights without negative repercussions (as in missed flights, possibly missed work, missed family obligations, etc)?

If the answer is yes to all, then sure, politely refuse and stand your ground until you get your way. I try to make sure I can answer all yes when I travel, but the last one isn’t always possible.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#12

Post by jsjohnst » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

brndnmtthws wrote: post #9

troydavis wrote: post #2

Section 5.1 (page 4) describes new rules for US CBP searches: “Officers may not intentionally use the device to access information that is solely stored remotely. Officers will either request that the traveler disable connnectivity to any remote network…”

So it sounds like a workaround is to avoid storing any data locally on the device. I wonder how effective that would be in practice. It might raise some suspicion if you unlocked your phone and they discovered you were logged out of everything, and there was nothing on the phone.

> It might raise some suspicion if you unlocked your phone and they discovered you were logged out of everything, and there was nothing on the phone.

There are countries[0] I travel to where that’s exactly what they find, essentially a freshly wiped phone. Hasn’t raised suspicion yet.

[0] it’s also how I travel to certain security conferences. Buy a used/refurbished device before, use for duration of event, sell immediately after.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#13

Post by mysterypie » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

jsjohnst wrote: post #12

brndnmtthws wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it sounds like a workaround is to avoid storing any data locally on the device. I wonder how effective that would be in practice. It might raise some suspicion if you unlocked your phone and they discovered you were logged out of everything, and there was nothing on the phone.

> It might raise some suspicion if you unlocked your phone and they discovered you were logged out of everything, and there was nothing on the phone. There are countries[0] I travel to where that’s exactly what they find, essentially a freshly wiped phone. Hasn’t raised suspicion yet. [0] it’s also how I travel to certain security conferences. Buy a used/refurbished device before, use for duration of event, sell imme…

> sell [device] immediately after

I've heard people say that if their laptop or phone were searched out of their sight by border officials, they'd sell it afterward.

But is it ethical? I think this meat might be contaminated; I'm not going to risk eating it, so I'll sell it.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#14

Post by natch » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

Never is there any mention that by accessing the device of person A, the officer may be violating the rights of all people (say persons B, C, and D) who have shared information in confidence with person A.

This includes getting access to my family photos. I don’t want an officer, who self selected by applying for a job that he knows will give him access to family photos, to get access to my family photos, because what kind of person applies to that job?

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#15

Post by jsjohnst » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 3:27 PM UTC

mysterypie wrote: post #13

jsjohnst wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might raise some suspicion if you unlocked your phone and they discovered you were logged out of everything, and there was nothing on the phone. There are countries[0] I travel to where that’s exactly what they find, essentially a freshly wiped phone. Hasn’t raised suspicion yet. [0] it’s also how I travel to certain security conferences. Buy a used/refurbished device before, use for duration of event, sell imme…

> sell [device] immediately after I've heard people say that if their laptop or phone were searched out of their sight by border officials, they'd sell it afterward. But is it ethical? I think this meat might be contaminated; I'm not going to risk eating it, so I'll sell it.

> But is it ethical?

Oh, the e-word! The word that has an entirely different meaning to every person you ask and more often than not, when it’s drug out in an Internet debate it turns into a pseudo-Gotwin’s Law alternative. I’ll spin is back to you to prove the point.

Is it ethical the work environment that the device you are using to reply to me with was built in?

Is it ethical that it was built with environmentally unfriendly materials and practices?

Is it ethical that the electricity to power your device (and this site and the internet in between) is not 100% renewable?

Is it ethical that you have advantages in life that many of the billions of people in the world have?

If you really want to have a discussion on ethics, I’m happy to entertain it, but this doesn’t seem to be the time or place for it.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#16

Post by b4lancesh33t » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #14

Never is there any mention that by accessing the device of person A, the officer may be violating the rights of all people (say persons B, C, and D) who have shared information in confidence with person A. This includes getting access to my family photos. I don’t want an officer, who self selected by applying for a job that he knows will give him access to family photos, to get access to my family photos, because wha…

There is not generally a right to confidentiality of information you share with a third party. There are a few exceptions (spouses, doctors, lawyers, among others). If party A shares information with party B outside one of these protected relationships, then I guess A's rights will not be violated if their information is discovered in party B's possession, whether or not party B shares that information voluntarily. (All subject to the search of B's information being constitutional.)

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#17

Post by carapace » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

jsjohnst wrote: post #15

mysterypie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sell [device] immediately after I've heard people say that if their laptop or phone were searched out of their sight by border officials, they'd sell it afterward. But is it ethical? I think this meat might be contaminated; I'm not going to risk eating it, so I'll sell it.

> But is it ethical? Oh, the e-word! The word that has an entirely different meaning to every person you ask and more often than not, when it’s drug out in an Internet debate it turns into a pseudo-Gotwin’s Law alternative. I’ll spin is back to you to prove the point. Is it ethical the work environment that the device you are using to reply to me with was built in? Is it ethical that it was built with environmentally…

You're doing it, do you think it's ethical? If so, why?

(I actually don't care, but your response was ridiculous and I noticed you avoided answering.)

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#18

Post by meri_dian » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

coldcode wrote: post #7

We really need a definitive SCOTUS ruling that searches of electronic devices violate the Constitution but if course we will never get that far. The intent of border searches originally was to identify goods being brought into the country to avoid paying duties or fees or being brought in illegally. Searching an electronic device is more akin to demanding to see what words are on a piece of paper you have in your poc…

Except finding terrorists isn't a "political purpose" it's a matter of life and death.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#19

Post by mysterypie » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

jsjohnst wrote: post #15

mysterypie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sell [device] immediately after I've heard people say that if their laptop or phone were searched out of their sight by border officials, they'd sell it afterward. But is it ethical? I think this meat might be contaminated; I'm not going to risk eating it, so I'll sell it.

> But is it ethical? Oh, the e-word! The word that has an entirely different meaning to every person you ask and more often than not, when it’s drug out in an Internet debate it turns into a pseudo-Gotwin’s Law alternative. I’ll spin is back to you to prove the point. Is it ethical the work environment that the device you are using to reply to me with was built in? Is it ethical that it was built with environmentally…

Sorry if I started the discussion provocatively. I'm thinking that there should be an alternative to throwing a $1000+ device in the garbage or passing the (potential) problem onto someone else. I don't know if there are any other alternatives, but I wanted to have a discussion from that angle.

Re: Border Search of Electronic Devices – CBP Directive [pdf]

#20

Post by krapp » Sat, Jan 06, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #18

coldcode wrote: post #7

We really need a definitive SCOTUS ruling that searches of electronic devices violate the Constitution but if course we will never get that far. The intent of border searches originally was to identify goods being brought into the country to avoid paying duties or fees or being brought in illegally. Searching an electronic device is more akin to demanding to see what words are on a piece of paper you have in your poc…

Except finding terrorists isn't a "political purpose" it's a matter of life and death.

It is a political purpose, because "terrorist" is a politically charged definition whose application changes with the political climate.