Isitapipelineproblem.com • Hacker News Board

Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com

#21

Post by oceanghost » Fri, Jan 05, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

bsanderson wrote: post #18

strictnein wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe the environment isn't bad or good, just configured in such a way based on the preferences of the majority of those in the environment?

The majority of those in an environment can have preferences that lead to a bad environment. That's like saying that Jim Crow laws weren't "good or bad" because a majority of people supported them at some given time. The plain truth is that many work environments including tech are worse for women than men. The cause of that reality is the behaviour of some men in that environment, as a result of the larger culture h…

I'm so tired of this broken record.

Humans are not exemplars of their race, sex, education level or any other group identity you wish to paint on them.

"it's bullshit for men who are not faced with the disadvantages in the workplace to avoid responsibility since it doesn't affect them directly"

Do you ever just sit and listen to how fucking stupid you sound? A man did something bad, you're a man, therefore you're responsible. This logical fallacy is called "guilt by association".

Fuck you and everyone like you.

Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com

#22

Post by bsanderson » Fri, Jan 05, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #20

bsanderson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of those in an environment can have preferences that lead to a bad environment. That's like saying that Jim Crow laws weren't "good or bad" because a majority of people supported them at some given time. The plain truth is that many work environments including tech are worse for women than men. The cause of that reality is the behaviour of some men in that environment, as a result of the larger culture h…

Bringing up Jim Crow laws in this discussion is pretty repulsive, to be honest. You're obviously wanting someone to argue with. Good luck finding that person.

Apologies if it came across as exaggerating your point, I didn't mean to equate what you wrote to Jim Crow laws at all but rather to provide an extreme example to illustrate how preferences of the majority are not related to whether an environment is good or bad.

I'm also not looking to argue really. I just find it frustrating when women raise what strike me as some pretty valid points and it gets shot down immediately (such as this original post being flagged and having pretty defensive/dismissive comments immediately).

The original link has a references link for each point, which point to things such as the National Science Foundation rather than personal opinion blogs. Nothing on that page is a big rant about how all men are evil, etc., and I think the sources provided are pretty solid. The reaction is telling and as another commented noted, does to some degree prove the point.

Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com

#23

Post by bsanderson » Fri, Jan 05, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

personjerry wrote: post #19

bsanderson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the environment is bad because of the shitty behaviour of some men, the most expedient and appropriate corrective course of action is to change the behaviour of those causing the problem rather than to assume that's just the way men are and waiting for more women to join the environment to balance them out. The burden shouldn't be placed on the women entering a bad environment to put up with it until they gain suf…

This is a strawman argument. I never said that trying to change the behaviours of men isn't important or more important. I was only refuting the author's claim that fixing the pipeline would not contribute to fixing this issue.

I don't see anything on the original site where the author claims that fixing or improving the pipeline would not "contribute" to fixing the issue so maybe a bit of straw from your end as well.

My understanding of the author's motivation is that it was in response to positions others are taking in saying that the root cause was the pipeline, and the central premise of the site (clearly by its URL) was that even if the pipeline was 100% fine, there are more significant issues that are the causes of the problem that are not taken as seriously as they should when people present the pipeline as being the central problem. Not sure who's making that claim so maybe some straw from the original author of the site as well. Strawmen all the way down sometimes.

Maybe isitONLYapipelineproblem.com might have been more clear.

Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com

#24

Post by bsanderson » Fri, Jan 05, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #21

bsanderson wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of those in an environment can have preferences that lead to a bad environment. That's like saying that Jim Crow laws weren't "good or bad" because a majority of people supported them at some given time. The plain truth is that many work environments including tech are worse for women than men. The cause of that reality is the behaviour of some men in that environment, as a result of the larger culture h…

I'm so tired of this broken record. Humans are not exemplars of their race, sex, education level or any other group identity you wish to paint on them. "it's bullshit for men who are not faced with the disadvantages in the workplace to avoid responsibility since it doesn't affect them directly" Do you ever just sit and listen to how fucking stupid you sound? A man did something bad, you're a man, therefore you're res…

Easy there tiger.

The record will probably remain broken while women spend huge amounts of time building up education and careers and then have an unfair additional burden of crap to deal with that their male peers don't.

I don't see how it sounds stupid (maybe I'm THAT stupid) to say that men who don't face the results of misogyny in the same way as their female colleagues are generally less inclined to even think it's an issue or to put effort into doing anything about it.

Nothing at all I wrote said "A man did something bad, you're a man, therefore you're responsible".

A more accurate reading would be;

1. Culture is complex and we are all a part of it. 2. Our current culture has some elements of misogyny that unfairly impact women in the workplace. 3. We can all contribute to improving things even if it doesn't affect us directly.

Now, point 3 depends on agreement that there is a problem so not sure if you agree with that or not.

I think the challenge is thinking of the issue as a cultural issue rather than on an isolated individual basis. When thinking about it while limiting the scope to a single individual then you think that person is either good or bad, and most people assume they're not the bad ones, so they get defensive if they think someone is lumping them in with the bad people.

Culture is complex and more nuance is required. It takes an open mind to realize that you may have biases that contribute to the issue, such as the second example on the site, with the elementary school teachers. The original site author, as well as the linked NY times article, do not say all those teachers are terrible misogynists at all because that isn't the point.