What is a pipeline problem? Never heard of it before.
In this specific context it means there is a dearth of women in tech because not enough women are pursing technical degrees.
Isitapipelineproblem.com
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Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#12I thought it would be an article about pipelining related to the recent Spectre/Meltdown event. Leaving extremely disappointed
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#13The fact that this got almost immediately flagged off the front page pretty much proves the point of the link.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#14> According to the Harvard Business Review, 41% of women working in tech eventually end up leaving the field (compared to just 17% of men) […] > Because of the high attrition rate for women working in tech, teaching more girls and women to code is not enough to solve this problem. Well that’s not true, because it’s pretty easy to imagine that once we get more women in the field through the pipeline, the environment b…
If the environment is bad because of the shitty behaviour of some men, the most expedient and appropriate corrective course of action is to change the behaviour of those causing the problem rather than to assume that's just the way men are and waiting for more women to join the environment to balance them out.
The burden shouldn't be placed on the women entering a bad environment to put up with it until they gain sufficient numbers to fix it themselves.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#15The fact that this got almost immediately flagged off the front page pretty much proves the point of the link.
No, it doesn't at all. This site seems setup to battle strawmen and adds nothing to the discussion.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#16> According to the Harvard Business Review, 41% of women working in tech eventually end up leaving the field (compared to just 17% of men) […] > Because of the high attrition rate for women working in tech, teaching more girls and women to code is not enough to solve this problem. Well that’s not true, because it’s pretty easy to imagine that once we get more women in the field through the pipeline, the environment b…
If the environment is bad because of the shitty behaviour of some men, the most expedient and appropriate corrective course of action is to change the behaviour of those causing the problem rather than to assume that's just the way men are and waiting for more women to join the environment to balance them out. The burden shouldn't be placed on the women entering a bad environment to put up with it until they gain suf…
Or maybe the environment isn't bad or good, just configured in such a way based on the preferences of the majority of those in the environment?
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#17Maybe I misunderstand the term "pipeline problem" [1], but these quotes seem to confirm rather than refute that there is a pipeline problem.
In my experience, boys and girls start out equally interested in male and female fields. But the number of girls/women is slowly whittled down until you reach the discrepancies you have e.g. in tech [2].
One factor I rarely see discussed is that technical / natural science fields are "default" study choices for young men. My male friends who didn't know what to study chose physics or computer science, my female friends mostly chose something else. It's funny that I saw an opposite whittle-down effect during my physics studies: the gender ratio became much more balanced as time went on, from just a handful of women when we started to about 1/3 when I was in grad school. I think the reason is that we have a high quitter's fraction (I think 40% in the first two years), and all the boys who chose physics because they didn't know what else to take were pushed out, whereas all the girls who started were talented and interested to begin with.
Another factor is that it seems to be uncool to be interested in math and science as a girl (even more so than for boys). I did some outreach / ask a scientist events, and when girls asked a question, they often got really strange looks and rolled eyes from their peers. It's the same social pressure that prohibits boys from doing "girl" things (and the same reason I never learned an instrument. The music club was mostly girls, the kids considered it "gay" to join, and I was not confident enough to join anyway).
[1] I suspect "it is a pipeline problem" is just a codified figure of speech meaning "I think there should be no women's quotas or affirmative action". Which is of course silly, there is a leaky "pipeline" due to a multitude of social pressures, and one way to fix this is to steer against and have quotas or formalized procedures to make sure you don't discriminate further against women. Ideally give women a second chance to not fall through the leaks, and to become a role model - because the kids need to see role models.
[2] Another problem is the "boys club" mentality, especially in higher management. You can give girls all the tech education you want, it doesn't matter if women are excluded from relevant positions. This is not an either-or (e.g. "pipeline" or "sexism"), you have multiple mechanisms that contribute to the gender bias we have.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#18Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the environment is bad because of the shitty behaviour of some men, the most expedient and appropriate corrective course of action is to change the behaviour of those causing the problem rather than to assume that's just the way men are and waiting for more women to join the environment to balance them out. The burden shouldn't be placed on the women entering a bad environment to put up with it until they gain suf…
Or maybe the environment isn't bad or good, just configured in such a way based on the preferences of the majority of those in the environment?
The majority of those in an environment can have preferences that lead to a bad environment.
That's like saying that Jim Crow laws weren't "good or bad" because a majority of people supported them at some given time.
The plain truth is that many work environments including tech are worse for women than men. The cause of that reality is the behaviour of some men in that environment, as a result of the larger culture having a significant degree of misogyny that has only gradually being eroded through massive effort over decades.
Cultures evolve and it's bullshit for men who are not faced with the disadvantages in the workplace to avoid responsibility since it doesn't affect them directly. Everyone should have the humility to acknowledge that even though they may feel that they have good intentions, that they as an individual component of the larger culture, may to whatever degree be contributing to the problem and conscientiously think through what role they can play in improving it.
The only honest alternative position is to either hold the belief that there is no actual problem at all, or to be openly misogynist and think that the existing inequality is the way things should be.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#19> According to the Harvard Business Review, 41% of women working in tech eventually end up leaving the field (compared to just 17% of men) […] > Because of the high attrition rate for women working in tech, teaching more girls and women to code is not enough to solve this problem. Well that’s not true, because it’s pretty easy to imagine that once we get more women in the field through the pipeline, the environment b…
If the environment is bad because of the shitty behaviour of some men, the most expedient and appropriate corrective course of action is to change the behaviour of those causing the problem rather than to assume that's just the way men are and waiting for more women to join the environment to balance them out. The burden shouldn't be placed on the women entering a bad environment to put up with it until they gain suf…
This is a strawman argument. I never said that trying to change the behaviours of men isn't important or more important. I was only refuting the author's claim that fixing the pipeline would not contribute to fixing this issue.
Re: Isitapipelineproblem.com
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or maybe the environment isn't bad or good, just configured in such a way based on the preferences of the majority of those in the environment?
The majority of those in an environment can have preferences that lead to a bad environment. That's like saying that Jim Crow laws weren't "good or bad" because a majority of people supported them at some given time. The plain truth is that many work environments including tech are worse for women than men. The cause of that reality is the behaviour of some men in that environment, as a result of the larger culture h…
Bringing up Jim Crow laws in this discussion is pretty repulsive, to be honest. You're obviously wanting someone to argue with. Good luck finding that person.