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Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

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Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#121

Post by robotresearcher »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #111
robotresearcher wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. Many animals cache food for the winter. Many animals will fight to the death to defend their territory, mates, or offspring. Some animals cultivate crops, e.g, ants growing fungus. Many animals actively forage to feed their offspring.

Those are hardwired instincts, not a conscious reflection on the fact that in the future things might be worse. In fact they are limited to a specific behavior, like storing food, and not generalized across all things that could happen. Fighting to defend territory or feeding offspring are strategies that prove successful for the survival of the species, not tied to consciousness of the future. For example, zebras ru…

How on earth do you state all these things as facts? You are confident about the mental states of zebra? Why?

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#122

Post by nakedrobot2 »

DrBazza wrote: post #118

The sixth referenced paper: Bird, R. B., D. W. Bird, B. F. Codding, C. H. Parker, and J. H. Jones. 2008. The “Fire Stick Farming” Hypothesis: Australian Aboriginal Foraging Strategies, Biodiversity, and Anthropogenic Fire Mosaics. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 105:14796–14801. Crossref, PubMed, Google Scholar Not quite an aptronym, but close.

The paper was written by two people called "Bird" ?!

File under "nominative determinism"!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#123

Post by gus_massa »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #23

From http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-03/smart-bushfire-birds/7... : > Mr Gosford said he had never actually seen a bird at a fire front, intentionally spreading the fire. > So he said he decided to appeal to people to come forward if they had seen birds behaving in that way. > Mr Gosford said he received 16 firsthand accounts from people who said they had witnessed birds spreading bushfires to flush out prey. > ..…

I think that the abstract is clear, and probably they are using the correct terminology in their field. But the first time I read it I didn't notice that they are documenting first hand stories about the events, but not the events themselves (aka videos).

> We document Indigenous Ecological Knowledge and non-Indigenous observations of intentional fire-spreading by the fire-foraging raptors Black Kite, Whistling Kite, and Brown Falcon in tropical Australian savannas. Observers report both solo and cooperative attempts, often successful, to spread wildfires intentionally via single-occasion or repeated transport of burning sticks in talons or beaks.* [..]

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#124

Post by meri_dian »

krapp wrote: post #103
meri_dian wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In each of those categories we're far and away the best. I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. I think among some people that are frustrated with the human world for whatever - either personal or abstract - reason, there's a feeling of misanthropy that colors their thinking, and so they try to belittle humanity.

>I really don't understand this feeling that humans need to be modest or that describing ourselves as special is wrong. We are special. To simply state that humans are best adapted at certain traits is true, but humans have tended to think of themselves as "special" in that "we're not even animals, but beings made in the image of God and given divine right to conquer Nature and do with it what we will." That anthropo…

That's a fair point. Recognizing it as true shouldn't prevent us from recognizing how special we are, but you're right that we need to take a conscious approach to act as stewards of the world with our great power over it.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#125

Post by nine_k »

taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

We are the the best culture-preserving and culture-spreading animals. The rest of the achievements follows.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#126

Post by Steltek »

taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

Humans are maybe special in that we can't seem to cope with anything that's not neatly black and white. Our brains tend to halt and catch fire when we have to analyze gray areas. Just look at politics or technical discussions. "Guns are (good|bad)." "It's slightly mathematically possible to compromise this system; we can't possibly ship like this!"

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#127

Post by philbarr »

agumonkey wrote: post #6
saycheese wrote: post #2

Stating the obvious, this clearly shows man is not the only animal to use fire as a tool.

oh god I thought it was a team name not an actual animal.

To be fair "Firehawk Raptors" is a pretty cool name. Even maybe for a death metal band. Or the next javascript framework.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#128

Post by robotresearcher »

fapjacks wrote: post #27
taneq wrote: post #7

So we're not the only: - tool-using animal - fire-using animal - language-using animal - animal which domesticates other animals - animal which builds complex structures Aha! I know! We're the only animal which continually comes up with reasons why we're special.

Call me when you find another animal that launched itself to the moon.

All animals are equal in that endeavour since 1972.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#129

Post by xj9 »

127 wrote: post #117
rtpg wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet a little bit of it in the modern world is rationalization for eating and generally mistreating animals.

I believe that's pretty much it. I remember going fishing with my uncle as a kid and I was disturbed what I was doing to these animals but my uncle told me that fish can't feel pain. I didn't believe it then, and even less now. To combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception. Without it, you can only pick two. For evolutionary reasons, it's obvious…

combine the eating of other animals, a rational brain and a mind at peace, you need some amount of self deception

i'm at peace with killing animals for food. i know that they feel pain, but life is pain in general. maybe i'm a terrible person or something, but a good bbq is def worth more than the life of a pig or a cow.

Re: Intentional Fire-Spreading by “Firehawk” Raptors in Northern Australia

#130

Post by 72deluxe »

mschuster91 wrote: post #84
coldcode wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cats are tool using as well: we are the tool.

We actually live in a symbiotic relationship with cats: we provide them with noms and warmth (and the cleaning of their litterboxes), they reward us with love. And the occasional thrown-off-the-table TV.

I think we are rewarded with "tolerance" which we interpret as love, based on our perception of the cat; if it is our own we see it as love; if it is someone else's, we think it is a friendly cat.
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