German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account • Hacker News Board

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#71

Post by coffee9 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

aceofspad4s wrote: post #9

Frondo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is not a political opinion. Political opinions are along the lines of "are my taxes too high" or "do we spend more on parks or on police". A belief in the inferiority of another race isn't political, it's something else. I don't know what, but discriminatory and bigoted beliefs don't belong in political discussions or any discussions about how we govern ourselves or organize society.

Racism does not have to be about "the inferiority of another race". Racism can be "I don't think it's good for the economy that so many people from outside are coming" or "this culture is completely incompatible with ours and I don't want these people here". It's a pretty lax word. By outlawing "racism" you're outlawing discourse.

If it's not in your self-interest what's the problem? They're certainly not immigrating for your benefit.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#72

Post by nailer » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #46

mentos wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate Speech Isn't Real | Change My Mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hPd2gMlGw I found Steven Crowder's arguments here to really challenge my thoughts on what is free speech and what is hate speech. Give that a watch if you have the time.

The video seems to make the point that there isn't a satisfying legal definition of hate speech (I haven't watched the whole thing). As a counterpoint, imagine you are a minority (if you are not already a minority), and further imagine that someone uses speech that has, in the past, been used to incite violence; or speech that is similar (dog-whistle) to that which incites violence.

Inciting violence is already illegal. Additionally, some protected classes are ideas (religion, usually implemented as being a member of a major religion) rather than intrinsic values (which I believe do deserve some degree of protection).

The protection of religion comes from sectarian violence, but this is better covered by other laws, and disliking a particular spiritual belief is no different from disliking any other belief.

You're free to call me a taig and papist, show Sinead O'Connor ripping up a picture of the pope, or exhibit Serrano's 'Piss Christ'. I'm free to laugh, realise that O'Connor was making an incredibly accurate complaint about the church's abuses, and pay for tickets (Serrano's an excellent photographer, I've not seen his sculpture first hand) accordingly.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#73

Post by Grollicus » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #55

Grollicus wrote: post #51

LOL they managed to get reuters. Banning messages via NetzDG is on message basis, that means single tweets get removed. Here a whole account got banned which is twitter SOP when accounts violate their TOS. Because the new NetzDG came into effect this month now every media in germany is confused. Seems like the international ones follow suit. Also the Titanic account (the satire account) got - wrongly - banned some ti…

I think the article is saying Twitter banned the account at least partly as a consequence of the legislation, because they were worried about being fined.

That does not make sense whatsoever. They should have just hidden the tweet then. They have built technology for that - I have seen some tweets that got banned because of the NetzDG. The law is very controversal and is making waves in germany. This article just chose a terribly example - but then again thats propably iconic for most of the fears about this law.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#74

Post by barsonme » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #46

mentos wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate Speech Isn't Real | Change My Mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hPd2gMlGw I found Steven Crowder's arguments here to really challenge my thoughts on what is free speech and what is hate speech. Give that a watch if you have the time.

The video seems to make the point that there isn't a satisfying legal definition of hate speech (I haven't watched the whole thing). As a counterpoint, imagine you are a minority (if you are not already a minority), and further imagine that someone uses speech that has, in the past, been used to incite violence; or speech that is similar (dog-whistle) to that which incites violence.

There are already laws against speech that incites violence as well as laws against violence, no?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#75

Post by nine_k » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:25 PM UTC

somenewacc wrote: post #42

nsnick wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not. Germany can block twitter, but I don't think the German people will accept that. Countries that love censorship need to realize that if they want to be part of the global discourse, they need to be part of all of the global discourse.

I'm not sure that calls for genocide are part of the global discourse.

Sorry, here's reality for you. A lot of unpleasant, dangerous, and clearly wrong ideas are present outside your filter bubble. Being aware of them may be also unpleasant and dangerous, but pretending they do not exist, and are not being voiced, is delusional. Choose your poison.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#76

Post by icebraining » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:28 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #15

Show me a committee you think qualified to determine what is hate speech, and I will show you a group fallen men, like the rest of us, who will ultimately abuse their power for political ends.

Of course, the same is true for any power that any group (or individual) might have. You need something more to distinguish this particular case.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#77

Post by Razengan » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

> the moral dilemma

Why is it so hard to codify “Don’t be a dick to anyone” into a law? (non-rhetorical question)

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#78

Post by fd233t343 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

Grollicus wrote: post #66

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

Actually you should look at the flip side of the coin: We - Germans - just decided that letting Nazis not speak their hurtful lies harms nothing of value.

Exactly like you - Germans - had decided circa 37 that letting Jews and Jew-defenders not speak their hurtful lies harms nothing of value, right?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#79

Post by icebraining » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:32 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #11

aceofspad4s wrote: post #3

Heh, I still can't believe they have "outlawed racism". That's like outlawing any other political opinion. How is that possible?

You don't have a right to threaten people. Racism had clear threatening implications.

So does communism, or really any other political ideology that implies an upheaval of people's lives, no?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#80

Post by steveeq1 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:33 PM UTC

Grollicus wrote: post #66

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

Actually you should look at the flip side of the coin: We - Germans - just decided that letting Nazis not speak their hurtful lies harms nothing of value.

Would you hold that same opinion if the thing said were, say, violent american black rap lyrics?