German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account • Hacker News Board

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#61

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:19 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #47

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It happened 70 years ago. Obama has a good line, something similar to: If you were in a restaurant in 1930s Vienna surrounded by great art, music and intellectuals you may have been forgiven for thinking that wonderful setting would continue on forever. Unfortunately, a short time later millions we're dying on a continent engulfed in war. When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we…

If you think people could be so easily corrupted by someone's speech on Twitter, then how can you have faith in democracy? I understand keeping young, impressionable minds from bad influence, but what about voting age people?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#62

Post by shaki-dora » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:19 PM UTC

abiox wrote: post #41

rimliu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say thech companies are above the law? What could go wrong…

if the law states that companies are deputized to act as police and enforce the law of the land, then i guess they have to comply. do the companies engaging in policing actions receive the same protections and considerations as actual police and government officials when it comes to legal issues involved with the act of law enforcement? i feel it's better that the state should be expected to take responsibility for a…

Companies aren't "deputised". They are just required to follow laws. It's nothing new, nor limited to Germany, nor nefarious: US companies are routinely required to cooperate with the government. When they submit tax information, have the foodstuffs they sell inspected for contamination, when they ask for your driver's license before selling you alcohol or when they put a "you must be this tall" cardboard cutout at the roller-coster's entrance.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#63

Post by nine_k » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #47

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It happened 70 years ago. Obama has a good line, something similar to: If you were in a restaurant in 1930s Vienna surrounded by great art, music and intellectuals you may have been forgiven for thinking that wonderful setting would continue on forever. Unfortunately, a short time later millions we're dying on a continent engulfed in war. When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we…

It would be naive to ascribe Nazi propaganda alone the role of the fire starter in WWII. The problem is that the Nazi propaganda fell on ears that eagerly wanted to believe it, so the Nazi leader was democratically elected before he seized the absolute power.

If Nazi propaganda might have any noticeable success in today's Germany (or US, or wherever), it's not because of some crackpots from stormfront; they are a consequence, not the cause. The cause should be addressed instead, first by assuming its existence. (No, I'm not going to discuss any probable causes here; I'm trying to show the logic, not to make a political case.)

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#64

Post by Houshalter » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #47

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It happened 70 years ago. Obama has a good line, something similar to: If you were in a restaurant in 1930s Vienna surrounded by great art, music and intellectuals you may have been forgiven for thinking that wonderful setting would continue on forever. Unfortunately, a short time later millions we're dying on a continent engulfed in war. When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we…

These people aren't "nazis" or "fascists". They have beliefs that would have been considered completely normal and moderate in 1940's US. The people that defeated the Nazis would be considered Nazis today. It's obscene how far left the overton window has moved. Opposing immigration is a pretty long way from Nazism.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#65

Post by 0xWilliam » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #47

dilap wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It happened 70 years ago. Obama has a good line, something similar to: If you were in a restaurant in 1930s Vienna surrounded by great art, music and intellectuals you may have been forgiven for thinking that wonderful setting would continue on forever. Unfortunately, a short time later millions we're dying on a continent engulfed in war. When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we…

>When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we can't imagine war. History is not a straight line and destructive ideas can still take hold in the wrong conditions.

No... But thats pretty bullish of you.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#66

Post by Grollicus » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:22 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #30

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

Actually you should look at the flip side of the coin: We - Germans - just decided that letting Nazis not speak their hurtful lies harms nothing of value.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#67

Post by icebraining » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #54

abiox wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas i wonder... is that actually something that works? or does it just mean fascist ideas gain a more polite presentation?

The thing is it does work. Because it forces the rotten core of the ideas to the forefront. It's the difference between having to enumerate all the people the mob think should be dead (which ironically is probably a collection of disjointed sets) vs just waving a flag and gathering all that hate anyone . By criminalizing specific icons of hate, you can rob those who would build a following from using them as a rallyi…

The question is whether it doesn't just mean that new icons are created - or old ones repurposed.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#68

Post by abiox » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

somenewacc wrote: post #42

nsnick wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not. Germany can block twitter, but I don't think the German people will accept that. Countries that love censorship need to realize that if they want to be part of the global discourse, they need to be part of all of the global discourse.

I'm not sure that calls for genocide are part of the global discourse.

this seems like a red herring or something... are 'calls for genocide' actually a thing worth caring about? is there a legitimate possibility that, say, bob goes on twitter and says 'kill all romanians!' and suddenly there's a genocide of romanians? it's doesn't make sense.

i mean, i get that it's attempting to appeal to one's aversion to a very bad idea, but random bob can't cause a genocide. a strong dictatorship a la hitler or stalin on the other hand... well, that's a much bigger problem than trying to regulate mean words.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#69

Post by drngdds » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Criminalizing speech isn't inherently fascist. It's not really new, either. Most liberal democracies have anti-hate-speech laws and they've never lead to anything resembling fascism.

(Besides, banning libel and true threats is also criminalization of speech. That's not fascism, is it?)

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#70

Post by olivermarks » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:23 PM UTC

That term 'hate speech' - what does it actually mean?

This seems like another assault on free speech to me and there is a danger in limiting the online Overton Window to a massive bland snooze fest.

The current joy of the internet is being able to read all sorts of perspectives from 'sensible' to radical and I really hope that continues...I worry for all the citizen journalists and investigators who have been so magnificent in the current western 'glasnost' era online...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window