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German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

reuters.com

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Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#41

Post by abiox »

rimliu wrote: post #33
nsnick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

So you say thech companies are above the law? What could go wrong…

if the law states that companies are deputized to act as police and enforce the law of the land, then i guess they have to comply.

do the companies engaging in policing actions receive the same protections and considerations as actual police and government officials when it comes to legal issues involved with the act of law enforcement?

i feel it's better that the state should be expected to take responsibility for and enforce it's own laws.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#42

Post by somenewacc »

nsnick wrote: post #39
rimliu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you say thech companies are above the law? What could go wrong…

Certainly not. Germany can block twitter, but I don't think the German people will accept that. Countries that love censorship need to realize that if they want to be part of the global discourse, they need to be part of all of the global discourse.

I'm not sure that calls for genocide are part of the global discourse.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#43

Post by shaki-dora »

nsnick wrote: post #31
shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

That's such a juvenile reaction...

Germany is considering a stable, open, democratic, peaceful, constructive and successful country. There are any number of rankings/scoring regarding freedom of the press and of expression, resilience to corruption, democracy, economic opportunity etc in which Germany scores better than the US.

These are laws passed by the national parliament, elected to represent its constituents. The law is subject to approval by not only the national courts, but the European Court of Justice, and the European Court of Human Rights.

To somehow consider it a grave injustice when Twitter is now required to act when they are informed of activity considered illegal in that jurisdiction is ridiculous. Because presumably you're doing so out of some understanding of "democracy". Yet you are ignoring quite a bit of the local democracy that lead to this.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#44

Post by rbehrends »

shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

> The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech.

The thing is that (despite the reporting in the English-language media), it's not actually a hate speech law [1]. The problem is that social media companies are being deputized as enforcers of parts of the penal code without proper qualifications, safeguards, or ways to appeal (unlike real courts).

> As such, nobody's freedom of speech is more limited today than it was a week ago.

Yes, it is. Speech cannot only be constrained through legislating what types of speech are legal, but also through creating enforcement mechanisms that encourage platforms to be overzealous in what they don't allow.

[1] The whole terminology does not really make sense in the context of German law. Not to mention that even in the broadest sense, it's inaccurate, as the law also applies to things such as illegal pornography and threats (regardless of motivation).

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#45

Post by [deleted] »

shaki-dora wrote: post #43
nsnick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

That's such a juvenile reaction... Germany is considering a stable, open, democratic, peaceful, constructive and successful country. There are any number of rankings/scoring regarding freedom of the press and of expression, resilience to corruption, democracy, economic opportunity etc in which Germany scores better than the US. These are laws passed by the national parliament, elected to represent its constituents. T…

[deleted]

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#46

Post by csours »

mentos wrote: post #38
shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Hate Speech Isn't Real | Change My Mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hPd2gMlGw I found Steven Crowder's arguments here to really challenge my thoughts on what is free speech and what is hate speech. Give that a watch if you have the time.

The video seems to make the point that there isn't a satisfying legal definition of hate speech (I haven't watched the whole thing).

As a counterpoint, imagine you are a minority (if you are not already a minority), and further imagine that someone uses speech that has, in the past, been used to incite violence; or speech that is similar (dog-whistle) to that which incites violence.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#47

Post by everdev »

dilap wrote: post #30
everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.

It happened 70 years ago. Obama has a good line, something similar to:

If you were in a restaurant in 1930s Vienna surrounded by great art, music and intellectuals you may have been forgiven for thinking that wonderful setting would continue on forever. Unfortunately, a short time later millions we're dying on a continent engulfed in war.

When the stock market is up we think it'll keep going up. When we have peace we can't imagine war. History is not a straight line and destructive ideas can still take hold in the wrong conditions.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#48

Post by nine_k »

nsnick wrote: post #31
shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

Twitter, if it wants to continue operating in Germany without facing lawsuits / prosecution, has to bow to German law.

It would be better if they could just reliably block the account from reaching German users only, while other users would continue reading the tweets. It, of course, is impossible unless Germany implements a country-wide firewall, the way China did.

I don't think it's likely, though. The point of actions like this is not to strictly eliminate any last vestige of hate speech. It is to send a message, so that other would-be-satirists could reconsider starting an account that breaks the law, and that other international companies which deal with UGC knew what to expect, and took preventive measures.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#49

Post by shaki-dora »

mentos wrote: post #38
shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Hate Speech Isn't Real | Change My Mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hPd2gMlGw I found Steven Crowder's arguments here to really challenge my thoughts on what is free speech and what is hate speech. Give that a watch if you have the time.

I have my doubts that any new thoughts on the subject that merit consideration would first appear on Youtube...

Plus, you didn't read the last sentence: "There is debate to be had on hate speech. This is not that debate".

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