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German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

reuters.com

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Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#21

Post by everdev »

aceofspad4s wrote: post #9
Frondo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is not a political opinion. Political opinions are along the lines of "are my taxes too high" or "do we spend more on parks or on police". A belief in the inferiority of another race isn't political, it's something else. I don't know what, but discriminatory and bigoted beliefs don't belong in political discussions or any discussions about how we govern ourselves or organize society.

Racism does not have to be about "the inferiority of another race". Racism can be "I don't think it's good for the economy that so many people from outside are coming" or "this culture is completely incompatible with ours and I don't want these people here". It's a pretty lax word. By outlawing "racism" you're outlawing discourse.

Anti-Immigration != Racism

Saying you don't want immigration isn't racist if it applies to more than just immigration from certain racial groups.

However, her tweet was not about that. She called out Muslims as having certain behaviors which is clearly racist.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#22

Post by IBM »

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Germany does have a good record with the former considering that they've completely denazified themselves while remaining a liberal democracy.

The fact is that Germany is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the libertarians of Silicon Valley. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#24

Post by mithr »

aceofspad4s wrote: post #3

Heh, I still can't believe they have "outlawed racism". That's like outlawing any other political opinion. How is that possible?

Having an opinion is not, and cannot be outlawed. _Expressing_ these opinions out loud in a public forum, however, is a different matter. Hate speech (with its various definitions) is actually outlawed in many places around the world.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#25

Post by bluthru »

rubatuga wrote: post #4
aceofspad4s wrote: post #3

Heh, I still can't believe they have "outlawed racism". That's like outlawing any other political opinion. How is that possible?

Since it makes people fear for their lives.

Racism: can make people fear for their lives.

Multiculturalism: can make people fear for their lives.

People are only allowed to express their fears about one of those issues, and the government decides which of those fears is valid. This is despite the fact that both racism and multiculturalism can make people fear for their lives. That's utterly dystopian.

In general with social media moderating, I'm very much against harassment but I believe people should be able to freely express their beliefs. If you're not following a person who you disagree with, what does it hurt?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#26

Post by shaki-dora »

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies.

The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc.

As such, nobody's freedom of speech is more limited today than it was a week ago. What the law tries to accomplish is similar to the DMCA, i. e. to force companies to take steps to address criminal activity on their platforms when such is reported.

I know there are many who disagree with laws limiting hate speech. But this is not that debate.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#27

Post by MikkoFinell »

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Fascists aren't what they used to be. They used to be a far-right fringe, but fascism lately is more of a thing on the left.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#28

Post by bluthru »

Frondo wrote: post #7
aceofspad4s wrote: post #3

Heh, I still can't believe they have "outlawed racism". That's like outlawing any other political opinion. How is that possible?

Racism is not a political opinion. Political opinions are along the lines of "are my taxes too high" or "do we spend more on parks or on police". A belief in the inferiority of another race isn't political, it's something else. I don't know what, but discriminatory and bigoted beliefs don't belong in political discussions or any discussions about how we govern ourselves or organize society.

Social science has observed that race has real implications in a society. http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/...

Are you saying that it's beyond the pale to even have a conversation about diversity and immigration policy? Are you assuming that an inflow of people from anywhere in the world is always good or neutral?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#29

Post by JumpCrisscross »

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

> This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech

Two societies chose different paths, each--in my opinion--appropriate for their circumstances. In America, we have the First Amendment. In Germany, they have Volksverhetzung [1]. The problem is Twitter, Facebook, et al think shipping information across borders is the same as shipping boxes.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#30

Post by dilap »

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

There's no dilema. It's just an excuse for control. Letting Nazis speak will not actually convert modern society into Nazis.
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