German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account • Hacker News Board

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#31

Post by nsnick » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#32

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:58 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

[deleted]

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#33

Post by rimliu » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

nsnick wrote: post #31

shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

So you say thech companies are above the law? What could go wrong…

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#34

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

> Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech

“Criminalizing speech” by itself isn't a particularly fascist technique, since it's been done by movements all over the political spectrum, starting long before fascism. Fascism (in the broad sense) isn't really defined much by technique (you could perhaps credit Naziism or Italian Fascism specifically with some techniques, like the distinct propaganda approach of the Nazis, but even that isn't as distinguishing as the ideological goals of the movement.)

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#35

Post by drb91 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

MikkoFinell wrote: post #27

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Fascists aren't what they used to be. They used to be a far-right fringe, but fascism lately is more of a thing on the left.

This is crap and a lazy claim. In the US, for instance, fascist tactics from democrats appear to originate from neo-liberals (Clinton, Obama) rather than leftists (Warren, Sanders, Stein).

If you squint, you can see that capitalism and regulatory capture have always been core to fascism. Neither are leftist values at all.

If you're obliquely referring to, err, recent "PC" culture, that seems to share a lot more with puritan culture than a form of government.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#36

Post by abiox » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

> criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas

i wonder... is that actually something that works? or does it just mean fascist ideas gain a more polite presentation?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#37

Post by aceofspad4s » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

mithr wrote: post #24

aceofspad4s wrote: post #3

Heh, I still can't believe they have "outlawed racism". That's like outlawing any other political opinion. How is that possible?

Having an opinion is not, and cannot be outlawed. _Expressing_ these opinions out loud in a public forum, however, is a different matter. Hate speech (with its various definitions) is actually outlawed in many places around the world.

What good is having an opinion if you can't express it or discuss it in an open forum?

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#38

Post by mentos » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

shaki-dora wrote: post #26

That's obviously stupid. But it's day two, and Twitter is likely to get their procedures in order, just like they (and Facebook etc) have previously done when implementing their own content policies. The law applies only to a narrowly defined class of hate speech. Statements that fall under the definition have always been illegal. People always ran the risk of prosecution when calling for genocide etc. As such, nobod…

Hate Speech Isn't Real | Change My Mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0hPd2gMlGw

I found Steven Crowder's arguments here to really challenge my thoughts on what is free speech and what is hate speech. Give that a watch if you have the time.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#39

Post by nsnick » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

rimliu wrote: post #33

nsnick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter should not enforce ridiculous German laws. The tech companies need to call the bluff of countries that demand censorship.

So you say thech companies are above the law? What could go wrong…

Certainly not. Germany can block twitter, but I don't think the German people will accept that. Countries that love censorship need to realize that if they want to be part of the global discourse, they need to be part of all of the global discourse.

Re: German hate speech law tested as Twitter blocks satire account

#40

Post by everdev » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

IBM wrote: post #22

everdev wrote: post #8

This is exactly the moral dilemma with free speech vs hate speech. Do you use fascist techniques like criminalizing speech to stop the spread of fascist ideas? Or do you simply hope fascist ideas don't take hold? The former is a scary slippery slope but Germany doesn't have a great track record with the latter.

Germany does have a good record with the former considering that they've completely denazified themselves while remaining a liberal democracy. The fact is that Germany is the perfect counterpoint to the, frankly tired, slippery slope arguments made by the libertarians of Silicon Valley. And I enjoy seeing them try to explain it.

Walking in any major city in Germany you can find young neo-Nazis. I would agree that they are good at clamping down on any symbolism, but the ideas are unfortunately still there.