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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#451

Post by vesrah »

wang_li wrote: post #376
qmalzp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

>where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. A little off topic observation here, but people who can't handle adhering to a business professional dress code are exhibiting a low resilience personality. Not a good thing. Not to mention the reality that a button down shirt, slacks and a tie, when properly fitted, are not constrictive at all.

I suspect that business professional dress codes coincide with a number of other workplace downers that a lot of us don't like.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#452

Post by x14 »

wang_li wrote: post #376
qmalzp wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That top pay grade is less than the starting compensation for PhD's at the big tech co's. Not to mention free food, potential for career growth, and an open non-militaristic culture where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. I honestly don't understand why someone would work for the NSA given the choice.

>where you can wear a hoodie instead of a tie. A little off topic observation here, but people who can't handle adhering to a business professional dress code are exhibiting a low resilience personality. Not a good thing. Not to mention the reality that a button down shirt, slacks and a tie, when properly fitted, are not constrictive at all.

Some people value self-expression and would rather be judged by the quality of their work than their appearance.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#453

Post by stale2002 »

willstrafach wrote: post #348
stale2002 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody claimed anyone broke any laws. He claimed that the NSA spies on american citizens and that it is better to have an honest job. The fact that it is legal for them to do this is the problem, obviously.

That is absolutely not legal though, which is why I asked for a citation, as it would be pretty big news.

It WAS big news. It was called the Snowden leaks.

For example, the government argues to this day that it is ok to do drag net collection of phone meta data.

Having access to every single person that you have called, counts as spying in my book, even if they aren't listening in to the conversations specifically.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#454

Post by wefwej2388 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #126
eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town.

Anyone going on line trying to re-org reality based upon their un-authorized opinions needs to take a look at themselves with a "sobering eye".

As if one's life goal should revolve around lowest common denominator jobs as snowwrestler sees it.

HN: Where discourse that considers how others should be doing everything.

Basically Reddit, where the only rule is "wrap your self-righteousness in utilitarian logic, but ignore that you're still just talking into the aether, since you have no ability to do any of this."

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#455

Post by wefwej2388 »

throwaway342a wrote: post #346
pc86 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

You hit the nail on the head. I've found that people can't grasp that there are a decent amount of federal employees that go to work and actually do nothing. I think some individuals take it as an attack on "big government" instead of a reality. Sure, it does sound a bit absurd if you haven't worked in that environment before, but people aren't exaggerating.

There are a decent amount of private employees that do that too.

Just because someone has a lot of money to "throw at a problem" doesn't mean they've invented anything new that has real human value.

It's ego masturbation based solely upon "My culture says this is right."

Like all this hodge podge rambling online about things we'll never actually operate on specifically because we don't have the authority to. We're just jerking off our own minds on HN

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#456

Post by dsfyu404ed »

sanderjd wrote: post #435
pc86 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard it phrased like this specifically but there is absolutely a mindset during interviews that the applicant gets the job unless you can find a specific reason not to give it to them. To @dragonwriter's point the rules surrounding Civil Service are even more extreme. Here is a real world example of CS hiring procedures: 0. CS Commission sets a minimum written score for oral interviews. Score is arbitrary…

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that someone who fought for their country in the military should not be preferred as a civil servant. It seems like a very strong qualification for these jobs.

Maybe we're better off loading the dice so that they pursue other lines of work. They may be good at being government workers. They may want to be government workers. It may be better for society over all if we do not give them preferential treatment in some roles but do in others.

This question obviously only applies to a subset of veterans. There's a civilian analog to many military jobs and the military's training and experience in those fields can stand on its own without preferential treatment for the most part.

A combat veteran may make a good post office manager or a good cop but it's probably better off for everyone if he's only given preferential treatment in the latter role.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#457

Post by MrFoof »

fergie wrote: post #289
MrFoof wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For hard numbers, 80% markup of wages paid out is typical (at least for large contingency recruiters and IT contractors), though it can be higher. $250/hr billed usually results in $125-140/hr in the contractor's pocket, and $110-125/hr for the place that sent them out.

In my experience its about 30%(ish) to the worker gross, which means that the worker gets about 20% after tax. It can be slightly higher or lower depending on the situation.

Depends on the org, and the rate. For high rates for specialists (well in excess of $250/hr), this is true (contractor sees 30-40%). For lower-end shops and lower rates (think your Robert Half, your Randstads), the contractor tends to take 50-60% of the bill rate.

My sources are VPs from some of the large contingency recruiters, founders of some mid-range consulting shops (~500 person headcount), and having to help run a smaller consulting shop (~20 employees) in the past before going fully independent.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#458

Post by jessriedel »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #430
jessriedel wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The agency also prides itself on an almost obscene reliance on Polygraphs, a technology no more accurate or scientifically sound than a babushka shuffling chicken bones and reading tea leaves. I can't find out why I see smart people repeating this all the time. It's not true. Polygraphs are very flawed, and they are especially vulnerable to preparatory countermeasures, but they have non-trivial predictive power. Wh…

If it doesn't stand up to "beyond a reasonable doubt" how can you have such faith in it? Hearsay is a fine example, as I wouldn't want my innocence predicated upon someone's flawed memory or whim.

Because "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a much higher level of certainty than we have for making many decisions in life? The NSA isn't jailing people based on a lie-detector, they are just using it as a necessary but not sufficient criteria for granting security access. It's OK to deny such access based on weak or circumstantial evidence.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#459

Post by ixtli »

DannyB2 wrote: post #356

> The people who have left were responsible for collecting > and analyzing the intelligence that goes into the > president’s daily briefing. I seem to recall that the president's daily briefing is now a single page with pictures. How many people does it take to produce that?

Why is this getting down voted?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#460

Post by gervase »

scarmig wrote: post #100

Question: how does this compare to other states? I'm particularly interested in China's equivalent(s?) of the NSA. Do they manage to retain talent? Is it because the PRC's elite believes more in its mission? Is it higher status than the NSA? Do they offer higher relative salaries?

I think the best we can do is speculate on this, as China's cyber capabilities are still relatively unknown by the public [0]. However, based on their investment in academics and a generally more positive view of government jobs in general (possibly due to historic sociocultural contexts [1]), I believe it's likely that their equivalent groups are probably treated quite well.

For example, for successful US-trained Chinese researchers, the Chinese government offers generous funding, publication bonuses [2], and high pay (comparable to, or better than, US institutions) for those who are willing to return to China and run research labs there.

Additionally, due to the relative lack of commercial opportunities for talent, creative, and ambitious home-grown talent (vs the opportunities in the US available to similar US-trained talent), the bar the government must exceed is commensurately lower.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLA_Unit_61398

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination

2. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/08/cash-bonuses-peer-rev...

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