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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#381

Post by rdtsc »

pc86 wrote: post #320
rdtsc wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wanting to get to know lots of secrets A bit tongue in cheek, but that's the people NSA should least want. They should be looking for those who want to know only the minimum amount of secrets to get their job done. > Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use That's a hard too I'd imagine. I wonder if many end up going in thinking they'd be writing kernel exploits all day and end up twiddlin…

Given how much information is classified, the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people. To your attack point, when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." He didn't work in intelligence bef…

> , the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people.

Could be yeah. I guess was thinking of TAO mostly where say someone would be working on accessing Juniper routers and that's all they know. They can't be going around browsing through all the programs and capabilities.

> And there are plenty of folks who simply want to fight the enemies of $COUNTRY and aren't necessarily psychopaths because of it.

Agreed. I meant "red flag" in way that it should be look at more in depth. It could be they are driven by patriotism or they just like to break rules and get a high from that.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#382

Post by Chaebixi »

pc86 wrote: post #305
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

>> Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town.

> And they'd take a 60% pay cut to do so, wouldn't they?

I wouldn't say the Post Office worker is overpaid just because of that. Private-sector pay for many such positions is shameful and exploitative.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#383

Post by leroy_masochist »

pc86 wrote: post #320
rdtsc wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wanting to get to know lots of secrets A bit tongue in cheek, but that's the people NSA should least want. They should be looking for those who want to know only the minimum amount of secrets to get their job done. > Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use That's a hard too I'd imagine. I wonder if many end up going in thinking they'd be writing kernel exploits all day and end up twiddlin…

Given how much information is classified, the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people. To your attack point, when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." He didn't work in intelligence bef…

> when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]."

How confident are you that he actually earnestly meant this? I've heard DIs / SOI instructors say things like that on several occasions, but it was all pretty clearly within the context of trying to be "motivating"....they didn't come across as actually psychotic.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#384

Post by Chaebixi »

zip1234 wrote: post #322
pc86 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

> Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

Because we don't want a race to the bottom?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#385

Post by bkeroack »

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

Imagine seriously believing that guaranteed lifetime employment, very generous pension and health benefits (unheard of in the private sector), a well-defined career ladder as well as a six figure salary somehow aren't enough. Out of the other side of your mouth claim that these people are public servants selflessly working for the good of all.

The reality is that the compensation package for government workers primarily appeals to those with average to mediocre ability and a strong aversion to risk (often also a tolerance for boring, repetitive work and/or bureaucratic infighting). When was the last time you met a bright, creative superstar working at your local DMV office?

That's why the US Digital Service is actually a pretty good idea. Tours of duty are preferable to lifetime career hires. I'd like to see much more of the federal government adopt that model.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#386

Post by Semiapies »

willstrafach wrote: post #93
Semiapies wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another POV might break it down as: stopped helping spy on her fellow citizens and got an honest job.

Might be good to cite sources with direct evidence, if you’re claiming that somebody broke the law.

Does the shtick of crying citation needed on well-documented public knowledge actually work, anywhere?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#387

Post by pc86 »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #383
pc86 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how much information is classified, the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people. To your attack point, when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." He didn't work in intelligence bef…

> when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." How confident are you that he actually earnestly meant this? I've heard DIs / SOI instructors say things like that on several occasions, but it was all pretty clearly within the context of trying to be "motiv…

This one did seem legitimately off to me, but I'll be honest it wouldn't surprise me to learn it was all an act and he was the smartest one of the bunch.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#388

Post by pc86 »

Chaebixi wrote: post #384
zip1234 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

> Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them. Because we don't want a race to the bottom?

What about getting rid of pensions in order to be financially solvent is a race to the bottom?

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#389

Post by alexanderstears »

snowwrestler wrote: post #126
eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

>Second, take a look at what happens to people who do leave the government. Very often, their salaries go up in the private sector.

There's a serious selection bias here. You'd only expect people to leave if their new job is better.

Why aren't the DMV clerks clamoring for walmart jobs? Because we probably overcompensate a lot of government employees and undercompensate others. This is another example of government incompetence and I bet they'll double down. Someone right now is trying to increase the pay grades, I promise it won't be enough to retain NSA talent but it'll make some high school congratulate in a cushy position very well off.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#390

Post by alexanderstears »

Chaebixi wrote: post #384
zip1234 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Payroll is the number 1 expense for government agencies. Easier firing would make a world of difference. I think the root cause is pensions. When people are tied to pensions for a retirement, firing people becomes a much bigger deal. Just pay a match into a retirement account and then when people can go, they go. Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them.

> Private sector pensions are for the most part long gone. Why should public sector keep them. Because we don't want a race to the bottom?

What we really don't want is the government spending tax money to stop the race to the bottom.
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