NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#311

Post by dimva » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

millstone wrote: post #134

dimva wrote: post #82

This is a problem across all of government. As a mediocre senior software engineer with no reports, I was paid more last year than the goddamn President of the United States (and no, it's not because I got lucky with stock). This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Of course our choices are going to be Hillary vs Trump if we pay the top leader in the country less than a mediocre software engineer. Of course Hillar…

Presidential pay is not outrageous because those seeking the Presidency should be motivated by public service, not remuneration. Of course, the President doesn't really have bills. He or she doesn't exactly pay to rent the White House.

Everyone is motivated by remuneration to some degree - the only question is who is remunerating our government officials: the public, or some other party with its own interests?

In the US, we've chosen the private sector to remunerate our officials after they've left public service, and our lovely government is the result.

Keep in mind that, as a public official earning top wages (~$150k/year) in DC, you can just afford to buy the median home in the area. But if you want a nice house (single-family) in a good neighborhood? Forget it! Whereas if you took your skills to the private sector, finding a place to raise your family would not be a major concern.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#312

Post by fineng123 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #305

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. Have you ever worked for government? I'm a civilian contractor in a software architecture role to a public safety agency in a state government. Half the "senior application developers" haven't written code in 15 years and don't know what a unit test is. There are…

Thanks for telling it like it is

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#313

Post by fsoj » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #248

gaius wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability I don’t think this is true anymore, at least in the UK you’re likely to be TUPE’d to Capita or Accenture at the drop of a hat, then laid off in 2-3 years anyway when your job is offshored. GCHQ has similar problems recruiting. And they also have to contend with the class system, exacerbating it.

The class system? In 2017, really? Or do you mean that GCHQ chooses to hire exclusively from the limited pool of Oxbridge graduates and can't change their internal culture such that they could hire school leavers at 16?

Unsurprisingly this is complete rubbish.

Requirements

We’re looking for passionate individuals from a diverse range of backgrounds, who are intuitive and curious about technology, computer networks and security, and want to make a real difference to the UK.

To apply for these roles, you have, or expect to obtain shortly, a degree in any Science, Technology, Engineering or Maths subject or a Bachelor’s or Masters’ degree incorporating ethical hacking, digital forensics or information security. Alternatively, you have a thorough understanding of networks and protocols, including experience of securing and protecting software and networks.

Along with an aptitude for problem-solving, you like to keep up with changing technology, and are able to grasp computing concepts and to apply your knowledge above and beyond academia.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#314

Post by dimva » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

aristidb wrote: post #244

dimva wrote: post #82

This is a problem across all of government. As a mediocre senior software engineer with no reports, I was paid more last year than the goddamn President of the United States (and no, it's not because I got lucky with stock). This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Of course our choices are going to be Hillary vs Trump if we pay the top leader in the country less than a mediocre software engineer. Of course Hillar…

A quick google says: > Where can a mediocre software developer get $450K+?!

Any of the big tech companies, for starters. But, I don't work for any of those companies. You can PM me for details, we're hiring.

Keep in mind this is in SF, and I don't know any senior software engineers here making less than $300k/year, more than everyone in the government except the President!

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#315

Post by mabbo » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #296

mabbo wrote: post #33

When I was just about to graduate from University, I had an offer from Amazon on the way (yay internships) but not really in-hand yet, so I kept interviewing. One of the options was CSEC, Canada's NSA. The stark reality was that at Amazon, in 2 or 3 years I would be making double what CSEC was offering. Early career pay in one was end-career pay in the other. They seemed nice, and I suppose what they were doing felt…

It worked better for you and I'm glad to hear that. For some people, the stability of a Govt. job, the regularity of promotions, the lack of long term uncertainty and perhaps the absence of as high expectations makes it worthwhile to pursue a job that pays less.

Actually, this stability and security was another big reason I chose not to join Government. I had done a few internships in the public service, and what I saw horrified me.

When you have job security and low expectations placed on you, it's wonderful. When everyone does, it's horrible. There is relatively little room for the lazy and useless in the private sector.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#316

Post by vonmoltke » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:35 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #24

vonmoltke wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. No, they don't. Billing rates are fixed based on the experience and education levels of the people working on the contract. If the government says they won't pay more than, say, $250/hour for a security expert that is all the contractor is going to get, and that in turn limits the amount the contractor can make. Pay at government contr…

That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position. The employee’s compensation is more about the number of pimps^H subcontractors between him and the contract. Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Tho…

> That’s just one type of consulting. If you pay T&M for a guy in GSA schedule or whatever, they’ll bill him as a Architect level 12 at $250/hr. Or a higher scale for a different position.

I'm not talking about consulting, I'm talking about standard T&M contracts. There is a limit to how much an individual can be billed out for, which by necessity limits their compensation. As for what people are billed at, the government auditors require proof of credentials and experience.

> Another example are service based contracts where the government pays a fixed price for delivery of one or more outputs. Those outputs might just happen to align with what particular employees do. These things are generally aligned to make the contractor more money vs the employee. But the employees are well compensated, and the overall deal is good enough that they don’t lose a lot of talent.

This generally happens at small contractors for small contracts. Contracts so small the big boys wouldn't even notice their existence (assuming they even qualify to bid). The vast majority of people working for government contractors are not in this position.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#317

Post by Chris_Jay » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #186

smallnamespace wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process: 1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence) 2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability 3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly po…

"if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly positively correlated to general 'ability'" That is seriously odd assumption. It sounds like confusing "personality trait that appeals to me on emotional level" with ability. Plenty of inable unstable people around as far as I can tell. Plenty of low ability risk takers too.

Would intolerance to a level of risk typically encountered in civilian life not make someone unable to function there?

My own experience in the public service was not so much of people unable to do their jobs but people unmotivated by them. My welcoming speech included the warning 'don't get attached to outcomes', and this was in a department disliked by the elected party where a lot of people had already been forced into early retirement.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#318

Post by vonmoltke » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:41 PM UTC

irishcoffee wrote: post #22

vonmoltke wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. No, they don't. Billing rates are fixed based on the experience and education levels of the people working on the contract. If the government says they won't pay more than, say, $250/hour for a security expert that is all the contractor is going to get, and that in turn limits the amount the contractor can make. Pay at government contr…

You have glossed over and simplified how contracts and billing rates work, your synopsis is not accurate.

How have I done so? Part of the contract negotiations on a time and materials contract concerns the billing rates for the personnel who will perform on the contract. The government has a schedule of what it is willing to pay for certain domain expertise and levels of experience.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#319

Post by myaso » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:43 PM UTC

patosai wrote: post #171

millstone wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presidential pay is not outrageous because those seeking the Presidency should be motivated by public service, not remuneration. Of course, the President doesn't really have bills. He or she doesn't exactly pay to rent the White House.

It's true that public service is a major part, but another way of thinking about it is if government officials are highly paid, they are less likely to be bribed or act in their own financial self interest and more motivated by what is good for the country. Plus it attracts talent. Singapore is an extreme example of this (perhaps too extreme) - the Prime Minister earns over $1.5M a year.

This Singapore comment needs to die before someone else ever repeats it again. Lee Hsien Loong (2004-now) is the son of Lee Kuan Yew (1965-1990) -- compensation has nothing to do with it in this case. Past a certain compensation range you are selecting for greed and nothing else -- if you earn in the top 10% and can't make do I seriously doubt you are 'intelligent' or your children must eat a lot and you have my sympathies.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#320

Post by pc86 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:46 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #202

schoen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few possibilities: Believing in what the organization does (which could include several different narratives about why its work is good and/or legitimate and/or necessary) Recruitment via channels that civilian firms aren't using and offering people an educational and career path they didn't expect to have Recruitment via family, friend, and teacher channels Wanting to get to know lots of secrets Wanting to work wi…

> Wanting to get to know lots of secrets A bit tongue in cheek, but that's the people NSA should least want. They should be looking for those who want to know only the minimum amount of secrets to get their job done. > Wanting to have one's unusual abilities appreciated and put to use That's a hard too I'd imagine. I wonder if many end up going in thinking they'd be writing kernel exploits all day and end up twiddlin…

Given how much information is classified, the minimum amount of secrets to do just about any job at the NSA is probably "lots of secrets" to most people.

To your attack point, when I was in the Marine Corps, one of my drill instructors said something to the effect of "You know why I joined the Marine Corps? Because it's one of the only jobs where you can legally kill a [expletive]." He didn't work in intelligence before coming to Parris Island but did have an active Secret clearance. Some people are just psychopaths and that doesn't necessarily preclude them from a security clearance. And there are plenty of folks who simply want to fight the enemies of $COUNTRY and aren't necessarily psychopaths because of it.