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NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

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Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#211

Post by log_base_login »

avh02 wrote: post #196
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested in the subject, https://www.amazon.com/100-Decisive-Battles-Ancient-Present/... is pretty fantastic. "Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and thoroughly immoral -- doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler would referee. Violence, naked force, has se…

Personally I'd think that in more modern times, as close as we've been to wars (e.g cold war times, which I'll admit predates me), there are probably countless times where frantic phone calls and backroom diplomacy (importantly, that you do not see) have saved everybody's skin from war (or nuclear war). I'll admit, this is speculation, but I'd be seriously blown away if not true. But yes, sometimes nations just have…

Both of the instances you mention would almost certainly rely or result on, and from, what intelligence might be shared or derived from having that frantic phone call or backroom diplomacy.

It's not just who you know, but what intel you can share to strengthen an alliance that matters the most.

What troubles me about this article is the after effect on those who might be employed by nation states who seek to better understand our intelligence mechanism, and while I realize that every actor in the schema is a cog in a very complex machine, it stands to reason that if tons of people are leaving public service for the private sector, there is a vast amount of leaky intel out there for the having.

I don't think there is anything wrong with consolidation, necessarily, but we need to have stopgaps in place to quell the unwanted outflow of personnel from what is essentially a defense-centered brain trust because of how much we as a public have invested in their training and relied on them to help us stay out of harm's way. I'm especially worried about the younger set (not to foment discrimination, per se, but maturity does shape one's thinking) who may more easily be duped by some seemingly friendly industry that is a shell company for nefarious activity.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#212

Post by gaius »

smallnamespace wrote: post #137
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process: 1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence) 2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability 3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly po…

the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability

I don’t think this is true anymore, at least in the UK you’re likely to be TUPE’d to Capita or Accenture at the drop of a hat, then laid off in 2-3 years anyway when your job is offshored.

GCHQ has similar problems recruiting. And they also have to contend with the class system, exacerbating it.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#213

Post by stale2002 »

willstrafach wrote: post #93
Semiapies wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another POV might break it down as: stopped helping spy on her fellow citizens and got an honest job.

Might be good to cite sources with direct evidence, if you’re claiming that somebody broke the law.

Nobody claimed anyone broke any laws. He claimed that the NSA spies on american citizens and that it is better to have an honest job.

The fact that it is legal for them to do this is the problem, obviously.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#214

Post by vidarh »

kodablah wrote: post #156
smallnamespace wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process: 1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence) 2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability 3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly po…

I too agree with GGP's characterization of the majority of government employees and I too have no evidence beyond anecdotal experience. But I think a reasonable model for evidence would be accountability information. I'll settle for numbers on government employee termination for dissatisfactory work by department (I'm sure it's somewhere, link anyone?). If, as I suspect, termination rates are very minimal in areas re…

Or termination in the private sector is rarely and indicator of quality.

In 23 years in the private sector, I've only once had reason to fire someone because they didn't do their job properly, and I've seen exactly one more developer fired in the companies I've worked in for similar causes.

The thing is, in most cases you can move people "sideways and effectively down" - there are always grunt work that needs to be done where they can do better relative to the role.

I'm not saying that's always done, e.g. if the gap between abilities and performance is huge. But in my experience it usually can.

And often, if things like performance improvement plans doesn't work, it costs less to simply freeze pay etc. for such employees until inflation does its magic and they're no longer expensive for their reduced responsibility or they decide to leave (but such employees often hang on and quietly accepts their diminished responsibility because they realize they were lucky not to get fired).

I don't believe in firing outside of extreme cases, and neither have most of the companies I've worked in, but that's not the same as not being prepared to take action to move people out of roles they're unable to perform well. Personally I see it as a sign of an unhealthy corporate culture and poor hiring if a company need to regularly fire more than a very tiny proportion of employees.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#215

Post by imbur »

kodablah wrote: post #158
snowwrestler wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks interested in a taste of how the federal government manages people can take a look at: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/ Much of the information in there carries the force of law; that is, a hiring supervisor cannot legally deviate from the process even if they think it is dumb and hurting their chances of getting the best candidate. My example of the subordinate who can't just get promoted has happene…

Wouldn't all of these (legal) rules, red tape, stories from your two personal friends, etc support the original argument that they employ patriots or the less qualified? Otherwise, why would a highly qualified person without any preference towards civic duty subject themselves to all of this when they have their pick of jobs? Especially in IT.

It is not to say that the private sector is without problems completely. These rules around promotions and hiring in the public sector prevent certain other problems like favoritism, sexism, nepotism.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#216

Post by philipov »

olingern wrote: post #177
philipov wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as policy is driven by lobbyists for private corporate interests, that will never happen. Keeping government jobs weak serves to make the labor market easier for them by reducing competition.

Agreed on corporate interests, but I'm not sure about keeping government jobs weak. With the government, your target market is every citizen (plus visitors, immigrants, etc.). The private sector has to create its market by providing a product or service, whereas the government is obligated to provide some products and services. What incentive is there for government to squander talent and keep itself workforce weak?

It is not in government's interest, but government has to follow the laws passed by congress, and keeping budgets hamstrung so that it's impossible for agencies to compete with the private sector keeps the private sector lobby happy.

Politicians' incentives are not to create effective government, but to keep getting elected. Having an ineffective government satisfies their financiers' desire to have less competition for top talent, and gives politicians an easy problem to campaign on fixing during election season, by never targeting the real problems.

Break some windows so you can claim credit for trying to fix them, and then blame the opposition when it doesn't work. It's a game where everyone wins, except the dupes that keep voting for them.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#217

Post by justonepost »

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

Does that count for contractors as well? I don't think so.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#218

Post by shams93 »

eadmund wrote: post #88
smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

Yeah my dad worked for army corps of engineers his whole life while he got stability, never was laid off the work was so unchallenging he has dementia as a result in retirement.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#219

Post by ptaipale »

shams93 wrote: post #218
eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

Yeah my dad worked for army corps of engineers his whole life while he got stability, never was laid off the work was so unchallenging he has dementia as a result in retirement.

Sorry for that, but I don't think dementia is caused that way (although the claim is usable as a hyperbole in conversation).

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#220

Post by vidarh »

stale2002 wrote: post #209
snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

> Second, take a look at what happens to people who do leave the government. Very often, their salaries go up in the private sector. This is especially true for specialists like the folks who work at the NSA. Seems like they can hack it. Well obviously. If the employee is competent, then of course they are more likely to leave. This exact method of adverse selection, where the good people leave, is the exact problem.

If the employee is competent, they're more likely to leave in private business too. Often exactly because companies tend to be really bad at offering raises and promotions relative to offering market rates for new hires.

It's not a given that this is better (or worse) in private companies than government overall.

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