NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#131

Post by shaklee3 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:42 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I agree with what you say, but you attacked OP for not providing evidence, and you didn't provide any either.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#132

Post by metaphor » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:43 AM UTC

latch wrote: post #106

eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

I agree. I don't know if this is a problem in the US, but something else worth mentioning is that for many jobs, public sectors pay much more (higher pay, better pensions, more sick leave, better job security, ...). So it isn't just about firing people for incompetence. [1] If the govt should be increasing pay to match market rates, then it should also be decreasing pay to match market rates. [1] https://www.fraserin…

> I don't know if this is a problem in the US...

With respect to STEM career fields, that's a gratuitous no.

For an idea of what a grunt GS-12/13 engineer's salary in Silicon Valley (highest locality adjustment in the country) looks like, see [1]; management is at GS-14/15 level. For the sake of completeness, other locality rates can be found here[2]. Keep in mind that it takes 18 years to progress from Step 1 to Step 10. Not all federal organizations apply the GS scale (the NSA may be one), but they don't deviate far from it either.

[1] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...

[2] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#133

Post by Codestare » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:47 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #75

paloaltokid wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are genuinely patriotic.

You'd think the genuinely patriotic would avoid working for the NSA, since it apparently results in exile to Russia.

He's not exiled? The US wants him back very much.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#134

Post by millstone » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:49 AM UTC

dimva wrote: post #82

This is a problem across all of government. As a mediocre senior software engineer with no reports, I was paid more last year than the goddamn President of the United States (and no, it's not because I got lucky with stock). This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Of course our choices are going to be Hillary vs Trump if we pay the top leader in the country less than a mediocre software engineer. Of course Hillar…

Presidential pay is not outrageous because those seeking the Presidency should be motivated by public service, not remuneration.

Of course, the President doesn't really have bills. He or she doesn't exactly pay to rent the White House.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#135

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:50 AM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #127

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

I work in the public sector, in Denmark, but I think a lot of the myths around public IT are just that, myths. We have some of the best talent in our country. We pay them less, but a lot of people prefer working in the public sector for a variety of reasons. Some are idealists who want to build a better society, others like the flexible hours and the paid sick leave for their children, others again like the relative…

We have some of the best talent in our country.

I worked for a well known (in this area) science non-profit agency, and while we did attract good talent, after I moved to the private sector (and literally earning twice the salary) that I found much more brilliant people working at the high paid private sector jobs.

So while I agree that public sector jobs can attract good people, I think that most of the best people are in the private sector where they can earn more money.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#136

Post by anonacct37 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

eadmund wrote: post #88

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

> Government employees tend to excel at working organisational politics (i.e., in serving their organisational customers) rather than in serving their taxpaying customers

In my limited experience this depends on the area. For example I know scientists who work for the government because environment and policy is their passion and for better or worse the EPA is/was the place to be. First choice not second.

But I've also met developers that work for state government and... I don't think they could handle a private industry job for the most part.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#137

Post by smallnamespace » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

eadmund wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process:

1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence)

2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability

3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly positively correlated to general 'ability', then the government will end up with on average less capable workers

Not saying this is necessarily true, and certain fields are probably exceptions (do people who choose to become cryptographers prefer a quiet peaceful life?) but certainly the movers and shakers of industry are people who can stomach enormous amounts of short term risk.

And there are also heuristic arguments to think (3) might be true on average. Like, if people with more money in the bank can take more short term risks, and it's usually the most capable people with that cash available (because they had more earning power in the past), then 'valuing career stability' might be a negative signal for candidate ability.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#138

Post by rgbrenner » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

ENOTTY wrote: post #66

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a civil servant. There are special pay scales for scientists and engineers, but they are still capped by law at the top end at the same level as the GS scale. In the DC area last year that was $166,000. I am not aware of any exceptions to the law, unless you mean the Special Executive Service. You can - eventually - make it into the Special Executive Service (SES), which pays somewhat higher (around $200k per ye…

That simply isn't true. Via fedsdatacenter.com, the highest paid employee of a federal government agency earns $403,849. Note that this dataset excludes sensitive government agencies. https://i.imgur.com/bgFxOkh.png

TVA, a federally owned corp, had its salaries uncapped by congress in 2004. If not for that law, they would be subject to the cap also.

Also, that $995k for the CEO is just the base salary.. his full comp package is about $6.5m

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#139

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

shaklee3 wrote: post #131

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I agree with what you say, but you attacked OP for not providing evidence, and you didn't provide any either.

They did not attack the OP, they criticized their argument. It's a fundamental difference.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#140

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 5:56 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #54

vonmoltke wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those employers contract with our government for totally uncapped contract sums. No, they don't. Billing rates are fixed based on the experience and education levels of the people working on the contract. If the government says they won't pay more than, say, $250/hour for a security expert that is all the contractor is going to get, and that in turn limits the amount the contractor can make. Pay at government contr…

Assuming $250/hr is a real example, that’s $470k/year. Is that really a problem? (Assuming 40h per week, 47 weeks per year because systematic staff shortage and EU-duration holidays because that’s what I’m used to).

You are assuming 100% utilization, which is almost never true, and even if it were, most of that money goes to the contractor's employer.