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Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

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Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#61

Post by mootothemax »

I live in Poland and have been trying to learn Polish for the past 10 months. And failing - a lot.

There are two main reasons for this (in my mind at least):

1) I haven't been fully immersed in Polish; it's too easy to speak English instead.

2) I don't understand English grammar.

If you have an analytical mind, I think point 2 is very important. The amount of textbooks I've read and failed to understand because it's like they're written in a different language. I think it's a bit like when discussing programming terms with a non-techie.

Anyway, I'm now spending my time learning about nouns, adjectives, verbs and what object and subject are in relation to a sentence.

It's a crying shame that I've got to the age of 28 without knowing this stuff, and a damning indictment of the English educational system (and myself!) /but/ I think it'll be worth it ;)

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#62

Post by brianobush »

thegeezer3 wrote: post #58

Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under 1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic translation (Japanese to English) an…

I would second "Remembering the Kanji" (RTK) I finished over a year ago and find that kanji is so much easier to handle after RTK.

Some might want to try the Listening-Reading approach once they have mastered the basics. I am currently reading Harry Potter in Japanese using this method. Easy way to cement kanji readings.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#63

Post by Natsu »

thegeezer3 wrote: post #58

Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under 1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic translation (Japanese to English) an…

I think that Rikai-chan has been supplanted by Perapera-kun these days. They both use the same dictionary file, though. Incidentally, that dictionary can be safely hacked to work in modern versions of FireFox (use Nightly Tester tools or hack the extension directly... I think you edit maxVersion in the RDF file, but I'm working from memory here). The dictionary files haven't been updated in forever and so Firefox thinks they're not compatible any more.

Perapera-kun link: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3343/

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#65

Post by rwl »

Todd wrote: post #39
rwl wrote: post #7

I have to learn a language for my graduate program. I have been learning German using the Michel Thomas audio program. It isn't perfect, but I do feel like I have learned a lot with relative ease -- much more easily than I learned Spanish in middle and high school classes. Advantages: * Michel Thomas CDs are significantly cheaper than software-based programs * audio format means you can study on your commute, rather…

Michel Thomas is good. One issue is that he is originally from Germany, so the german edition is probably great. He teaches a number of different languages (such as French), where you won't be learning from a native. He did spend time growing up there, and you'll probably hear his story about how he fooled the Germans with his French. Even so, it's not the same as hearing a native Parisian. The other feature/problem…

The other feature/problem is that you're hearing the two other students learning with you. They will often make the similar mistakes that you will make, which is encouraging. However, I think that 1 out of 3 fluent speakers on a tape is less effective for learning the correct pronunciation.

For those who don't know the program: the way it works is that the teacher says a sentence in English, at which point you are supposed to pause the recording and formulate it in German (or whatever language). When you continue the playback, one of the other students will also formulate the sentence in German. Then the teacher will correct them if they're wrong, and repeat the correct sentence (with correct pronunciation). The idea is that the correct pronunciation is the last thing you hear.

It's true that this may be less than ideal if your goal is to speak the language fluently. I'm mostly worried about passing a (written) translation exam, so pronunciation is a secondary concern for me.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#66

Post by [deleted] »

ptn wrote: post #35

If you have nobody to practice with, you are gonna get nowhere. If you don't know anybody who speaks the language, can't get reading material written in it or don't have a TV channel in it, it's gonna be a rough one. You don't learn a language by reading a book, you do it by using it. Ultimately, if the language isn't useful to you, don't learn it (useful as in you plan to travel there or do business with them). Unle…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#67

Post by dkarl »

If you're an analytical person who is confident in your ability to learn grammar and organize your learning -- and I imagine this applies to lots of folks on HN -- your main concerns will be:

1) Practice with a native speaker.

2) Ongoing motivation to study.

Craigslist may solve this problem for you, depending on where you live and what you're studying. On Craigslist you'll find native speakers offering conversation at very low prices. Here's a current example on the Austin Craigslist:

"Conversational Japanese lesson for 20 dollars per hour (Central Austin)

Let's meet at a coffee shop, and speak in Japanese; please buy me a drink. I am a Japanese female who moved from Tokyo recently. 20 dollars per hour. "

I'm guessing this person doesn't provide organized lessons and help understanding grammar, but honestly, I've tried a couple of "teachers" charging $20-$25 per hour, and they didn't either. People with good teaching skills charge more, I guess. $20 per hour to talk to a native speaker is worth every penny, though, if only because you make sure you study so you aren't embarrassed by your lack of progress since last time. If it helps (it helped me) you can cultivate a mild crush on your tutor for extra motivation ;-)

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#68

Post by bluesmoon »

ximeng wrote: post #54

I have got to a reasonable level with mandarin Chinese through on-and-off study over a few years, mostly in my free time. Here is what worked for me. 1) Most important is how much time you put in. Don't worry about the on-and-off, though regular is better. Don't worry too much about efficiency unless you're putting in the hours. For Chinese I estimate I've spent at least 2000 hours studying to get to where I am today…

I second Karaoke.

Learning a language by first learning to mimic songs is a great way to build pronunciation skills, and also get to know common words and how they go together. You then also have a tune to associate with different constructs, and it's much easier to memorise a tune than it is to memorise words.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#70

Post by drtse4 »

danh wrote: post #53
Todd wrote: post #46

First, the older you get, the harder it becomes to learn a language. So begin now, regardless of your age. Second, you really must have a strong interest in the language, culture, or people of the target language (or at least be able to grow that interest over time). Preferably, the sound of the language should also appeal to you on a certain level. Learning a language is a commitment. That said, it is possible to da…

I would start with number 4, and save the formal grammar study for (much) later. IMHO, the far most important thing to do is to listen. I prefer podcasts, but anything (radio, films, TV, overheard conversations in bars) will do. Understanding spoken language is also (again in my opinion) by far the most difficult part of learning a language. Especially in real life, and really noisy, situations, where you probably on…

Agreed, listening is fundamental. By listening, grammar rules can be picked-up easily and "naturally", it helps to develop an ear for the language and absorb its structure, something that will be also useful when you'll try to speak the new language.

I liked how the previous poster highlighted the need for a concise grammar, focusing too much on grammar rules can be fatal and a huge time waster. This was one of the mistakes i made while studying english, this and the on-off attitude, the lack of material and many other errors that now can be easy solved using the net. Things will go a lot differently with my 3rd language (japanese, that i'd like to use in the future to learn mandarin).

The main point that emerges from this great thread is basically that you must leverage the high amount of quality and cheap language-learning material that is now available. Try everything, discard what doesn't work, and as soon as you have defined a plan stick to it.

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