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Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

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Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#51
I've been learning chinese for about a year now. I use chinesepod for vocabulary, realisitic dialog and small doses of grammar. I deconstruct the podcasts into a form where I painstakingly repeat the entire dialog piece-wise at a slower speed until my pronounciation is good. Using audacity to label regions of the dialog and praat to pick out pitches, it's possible to get a very precise view of how the tones are being pronounced. (praat is opensource too). I use skritter to work on learning the characters imported from the lessons at chinesepod (they have an interoperability agreement)

I watch a live streaming weather channel from beijing, and another channel out of nanjing. Since the connections are spotty, I have $mplayer -dump the stream straight to file, and then play from that. This endows mplayer the ability to seek, and of course plays much smoother without the cache issues.

Use IRC. Typing the language is great practice and native speakers can offer helpful advice.

Staying motivated is the hardest part, prevent burn out any way possible. Use automation when it makes sense, though It's easy to spend too much time messing with tools to learn, rather than learning.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#52
post #4

This is how I've learned English and French: * Step 1: Learn the grammar and the few thousand most important words. This is the hardest and least fun part. * Step 2: Read a lot in order to obtain a large vocabulary. A lot. * Step 3: Listen to the language. TV, Radio, Movies, etc. * Step 4: Talk to native speakers. A lot.

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Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#53
post #46

First, the older you get, the harder it becomes to learn a language. So begin now, regardless of your age. Second, you really must have a strong interest in the language, culture, or people of the target language (or at least be able to grow that interest over time). Preferably, the sound of the language should also appeal to you on a certain level. Learning a language is a commitment. That said, it is possible to da…

I would start with number 4, and save the formal grammar study for (much) later.

IMHO, the far most important thing to do is to listen. I prefer podcasts, but anything (radio, films, TV, overheard conversations in bars) will do.

Understanding spoken language is also (again in my opinion) by far the most difficult part of learning a language. Especially in real life, and really noisy, situations, where you probably only hear half of the sounds people are making. The rest you will have to fill in yourself - which is sort of like solving crossword puzzles in real time.

This takes a lot of practice, and there's really no way around that.

Starting by studying all the rules of formal grammar is, I think, a bit like learning to play tennis by first studying the rule book a couple of years...

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#54
I have got to a reasonable level with mandarin Chinese through on-and-off study over a few years, mostly in my free time. Here is what worked for me.

1) Most important is how much time you put in. Don't worry about the on-and-off, though regular is better. Don't worry too much about efficiency unless you're putting in the hours. For Chinese I estimate I've spent at least 2000 hours studying to get to where I am today.

2) Vocab's important. SRS can help with this. I personally like using online dictionaries and translating the example sentences. Any word you don't understand in an example sentence, look up. It will take a long time, but eventually you will start to remember common words. One day you will get to the stage where you recognise 95% of the words you see, and that's enough to get basic understanding of most material. You'll probably eventually want to aim for about 10,000 words of passive vocabulary. At 10 minutes a word, that's already 1500 hours+, about 40 weeks, 40 hours a week.

3) Mandarin or arabic are languages that many people speak and study. You'll be able to find plenty of material online, videos, radio, news, blogs. TV and radio are probably less efficient if you're not able to read similar material, so try to find material with transcripts or subtitles and use those.

4) Teachers can be helpful, but are expensive. VOIP classes may help with the cost, or living in a country that speaks the language. The main thing teachers will help with are correcting usage mistakes and pronunciation. Working with a teacher is in my opinion not much more efficient (maybe less) than self-study for pure vocab learning, so self-study vocab if you want to save money. Useful exercises are writing essays (ideally by hand) and having them corrected, and reading passages out loud for pronunciation practice. General chat can be helpful for building confidence and because it uses different vocab.

5) There are lots of free resources for learners online. For example, http://www.dliflc.edu/products.html has an Arabic grammar search, and some other Arabic resources if you look for them. It maybe worth trying some of these. Try different language versions of topics in Wikipedia, sometimes the foreign languages are translated directly from the English versions. Or for words you can't find in a dictionary, try doing a search with the target language equivalent of "what's the meaning of xyz".

6) Unfortunately though vocab and time are the limiting factors, so though you may be slightly more efficient with software and specialist podcasts (definitely worth at least trying some free learning site podcasts for arabic, sure there must be some out there), optimise for maximum time spent rather than software bought. While my mandarin is a long way from where I want it to be, I'm reasonably fluent in the basics, and given time I'm confident I'll get there on the rest.

7) I've spent a fair amount on private tuition, but nothing on specialist software, and the textbooks I've bought I haven't used much. A good dictionary will do you just as well as a lot of textbooks, though textbooks won't do any harm, just not essential. So don't worry too much about not having the right tools so long as you are able to figure out example sentences in a dictionary, armed with plenty of patience you'll probably be alright. Incidentally I'd say with today's internet, it's probably less important to go overseas to study than before, although it probably won't hurt (apart from the disruption of moving to a new place). Language partners can help, but if you're aiming for 500 hours of study it's likely that you can earn enough to pay for a teacher for 500 hours in less than 500 hours doing something other than teaching English, so consider this more for fun unless you particularly enjoy teaching people.

8) Don't worry too much about age. Do worry about motivation and the time you spend. Kids grow up in an environment with educational TV shows, parents and teachers correcting their mistakes, and many hours of language classes learning literature, grammar, composition, public speaking, and so on. You can do some but not all of this, but as an adult you have responsibilities and so the limiting factor is likely to be the time you decide to spend on these areas. Try finding kids TV on youtube or equivalents, but realise that it's going to be more expensive and hard to simulate the learning environment of a child compared to a child growing up in the country.

9) You'll forget things if you don't study for a while, native or non-native speaker. But you'll pick them up soon enough when you start studying again. So don't worry too much about that, aim for regular study, but study when you can is better than not at all.

10) Before spending the thousands of hours and the money to learn a language, be clear about your goals and the level you want to attain. You can go anywhere up from understanding a menu and asking someone where they're from to understanding a country's culture and literature and being able to talk fluently with natives. To really get good at a language you'll need to spend a lot of time, this will be easier if you can justify it for reasons beyond just the language, probably professional or personal reasons in the long term.

Put the time in and you'll get there before too long. Have fun.

Edit: http://gloss.dliflc.edu/ has lessons for many languages. Edit2: Karaoke can be fun too - search youtube. Edit3: I like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgElZAj3ePI quite funky, though it's difficult to know if her accent / vocab is standard, it's still fun to try to follow.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#55
I disagree that you can learn a foreign language easily by hanging around people that speak that language, particularly if they are bilingual. It is a big effort to speak to someone who is not fluent, and people generally don't want to. Whether in the U.S. or abroad, you need to study enough to hold a simple conversation before you can effectively interact with people who you are not paying for lessons.

Most people go abroad for a limited amount of time. You should study tapes before you go, to use your practice time there effectively.

I think the Michel Thomas tapes/CDs are the best to start with, for the languages they are available in (mostly Romance languages). After you are done with these you can switch to Pimsleur for more study.

I found that the Michel Thomas tapes are enough background that you can have simple conversations, which of course is only the start of learning a language.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#56
1. Move to the country where your target language is spoken.

2. Find a live-in girlfriend or boyfriend who doesn't speak your language and is not motivated to learn it.

3. Carry a dictionary in your pocket, which you will have to reference constantly to speak with the aforementioned gf/bf.

4. Spend all of your time with people who don't speak your language.

5. Study a lot. Use a succinct grammar book like those published by Routeledge, use a Pimsleur course to get the language feel, and hammer away at vocabulary.

I lived in China, Ukraine and the Philippines and studied their respective languages without the benefit of a monolingual live-in girlfriend. I still learned these languages with varying levels of proficiency, but it was slow going. Then I moved to Brazil and followed the steps above. The difference is remarkable. I was completely conversational and literate in Portugese in about four months.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#57
post #37
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually the most important thing. Have an awful vocabulary, a rudimentary grammar, but get the pronunciation right. You can always buff up on your words or rules, but getting rid of an atrocious accent is very hard to do. Utterly impossible if you're Styrian. I wonder whether singing helps. The overall musical structure might make proper phonetics easier to memorize; on the other hand I've heard quite a lot…

I won't go as far as to say that singing is ineffective but, putting it at another way, you can sing in a foreign language pretty well without being able to speak that language.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#58
Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under 1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic translation (Japanese to English) and helping out at Japans Annual Ruby Conference this year with translation. About 5 years in.

From personal experience:

The biggest factor in how fast you improve during your studies is environment. Noticed I said during your studies. Simply being immersed isn't good enough. To create your environment you can (in order of effectiveness):

Find a boy/girlfriend who natively speaks the language. Its best if they cant speak yours. This is steroids for your language learning.

Failing that find roomates - the more the better. Nearly as good.

It doesn't matter if your stuck in your home country - I've met Japanese people who rock at English just because they either had a lazy English speaking partner who couldn't be bothered to learn the lingo or likewise lazy roommates.

Start reading websites, magazines, listening to music and watching films or youtube all in your target language. Pursue your interests as much as possible using your new language. If you like hip-hop then listen to underground hip-hop artists via youtube. Grab their lyrics from the net and translate. Sing it out-load in the shower.

Skype for discussions, Lang8.com for writing blogs and peer review etc etc etc

If your looking at becoming very conversational (talk about wide range of subjects comfortably but not yet bling bling) then its going to be 3 years plus. With that in mind you have to be a well oiled machine with vocabulary management, just being 10% more efficient with your vocabulary means a saving of 3-4 months and compared to the traditional use of lists on paper, software such as Anki helps you be at least 20% more efficient.

Assuming your in this for the long haul, don't neglect the reading and writing part for languages with scripts or "funny" symbols. Rather prioritize it since being able to read books and magazines will help you grasp how things are said naturally. You'll meet new words everyday and come across them time and time again in context helping you internalize them faster. Unlike conversation, you control the pace when reading and its more comfortable for beginners and intermediates. I tried learning Kanji the way native Japanese people do and failed miserably. I tried some books most crap but one gem called "Remembering the Kanji" was absolutely amazing. In 2months I got through 2000kanji and by 6 could draw every single one from memory. And there were faster learners than me! I'm sure there's something for Arabic script if that's tricky.

Get the basic tools. Get a learners dictionary to start. Once you start getting better, try an Arabic dictionary for Arabic kids i.e. no English written whatsoever. Ideal would be a dictionary for the pc to aid faster lookups via copy and paste. Don't by cheap crap though as it will probably have awful explanations and old fashioned examples ending up in you sounding like someones granddad. Likewise look for a good grammar reference.

Get a dictionary plugin for Firefox. I use rikaichan for Japanese. I simply hover over a word and the definition pops up instantly. Very handy.

Lastly implement all of the above slowly one by one, remember Rome wasn't built in a day and have fun.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#59

Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under 1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic translation (Japanese to English) an…

"Find a boy/girlfriend who natively speaks the language. Its best if they cant speak yours."

Now that one would be a tricky one.. Starting a relationship when you can hardly communicate with eachother? ;-)

Re: Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language?

#60
post #59

Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under 1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic translation (Japanese to English) an…

"Find a boy/girlfriend who natively speaks the language. Its best if they cant speak yours." Now that one would be a tricky one.. Starting a relationship when you can hardly communicate with eachother? ;-)

True, but you can go at it backwards too. I met my wife in grad school and decided to learn the language afterwards; probably better route IMO. The hard part has been using English as a crutch - it has always been hard to go all out in Japanese.
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