LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#571

Post by rojoca » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 1:55 AM UTC

Dove wrote: post #550

mgkimsal wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the best way to avoid misunderstandings and snap reactions is to move slowly and deliberately in any confrontation. Excellent idea. Let's train/condition 300 million people exactly how they should behave in stressful and life-threatening situations, and put at least part of the blame on them for any deviation from "acceptable" behaviour when put in an unknown situations with guns pointing at them. It would take far…

I really do think teaching people how to be non-threatening would be one of the most effective methods of avoiding tragedy. I know you make light of educating large numbers of people, but there are a lot of things we all know about society in order to be safe. It seems to me that "sudden movements in tense situations provoke violent reaponses" isn't that hard of a thing to learn. Don't we teach people not to run from…

What about mentally ill people? People on medication that make them groggy? People who are drunk in their own home? People who are exhausted from a huge week at work? Children? Elderly?

People cannot reasonably be expected to “stay calm” at a moments notice. That is completely unreasonable.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#572

Post by macspoofing » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 1:56 AM UTC

mmmBacon wrote: post #83

v64 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough port…

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

That's unfair. What is missing from this discussion is that American crime rates are an outlier in the developed world. I worry that trigger happy 'militarized' police force won't end until crime rate goes down to the level of other developed nations.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#573

Post by Dove » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 1:58 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #508

Dove wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

From my perspective, they are describing a very threatening movement. You don't have a perspective here, you're uncritically adopting theirs, which is designed to present things in a certain way. 'the male' - not a person or a man; dehumanizing language 'turned towards the officers' - probably because he had just noticed their presence; this language implies intent 'the residence' - it's a house; unnecessary abstract…

I do actually have a little bit of a martial arts background. That's actually why the officers' story seemed plausible to me - I know both how fast combat happens and how easy it is for an innocent person to look threatening because of the ambiguity and pace of it.

I can't say that the officers acted well or badly here - I wasn't there. All I am saying is that this sounds like a tragic misunderstanding to me. And that people not understanding what real threats look like can lead them to behave in ways they don't realize are dangerous, and that's a real problem, and maybe something we can do something about on the civilian side.

I find it really unlikely that cops kill people for laughs. Does their training make them too high strung and jumpy? I mean, I've seen it, and given the threats they face, I don't really think so.

I do have sympathy for police. I know police officers. I train with some sometimes. I'm not saying there aren't bad ones or that there isn't bad training - I'm just saying that it would be a lot easier for them and the people they interacted with to stay safe if everyone understood what being non-threatening actually looks like, and how to surrender safely. I just hate to see a tragic outcome result from a misunderstanding. And maybe that's not what this is, but it's what it sounds like.

I think a lot of people have this really unreasonable standard for police, that they're supposed to know who's good and who's evil, and who's attacking and who's panicking... and man, they're just trying to get the situation under control so it can get sorted out. They aren't God. They aren't even juries and courts. You can't just be innocent, you also gotta act safe. I understand the outrage when innocent people die - I do. I'm just trying to offer a practical way to make the world a safer place. I don't think outrage at police alone is necessarily practical. There are some practical issues when people who don't know what combat looks like wind up in a tense situation, and they're real issues, and being mad at police isn't a great solution alone. All I'm sayin.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#574

Post by freeflight » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

throwaway7312 wrote: post #278

cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

Do we know what it is? You seem quite confident. Americans have 101 guns per 100 citizens. Finns have 34.2 guns per 100 citizens. Icelanders have 30.3 guns per 100 citizens. America has 110x the murder rate than Finland has. America has 13,000x the murder rate Iceland has. Whatever the cause is, 3x the guns ≠ 110x the murder rate (or 13,000x the murder rate). A more interesting comparison might be to examine countrie…

These kind of comparisons are so dishonest, at least you used Finland and Iceland instead of Germany and Switzerland, but the basic flaw still remains: Did you actually compare the gun regulations in place [0] instead of just comparing raw numbers of guns in circulation?

Because it's exactly those proper gun regulations which allow these countries to have many guns, without irresponsible owners constantly getting innocents killed and police being forced to treat everybody they encounter as a potentially armed suspect. That's also the reason why not every police officer in Iceland needs to carry a gun [1].

Case in point: Neither Finland nor Iceland has "open carry", they actually require you to have a reason for wanting to get a permit. In Iceland, applicants have to go through a government course to show they are actually responsible and able enough to own a firearm. In Finland, each individual gun is registered with its own permit.

Contrast that with the situation in the US: There is no federal gun regulation, each state makes its own laws, which leads to lots of loopholes (buying guns at gun shows) and ultimately leads to a flood of unregulated guns getting into the hands of people who lack the training and responsibility to own such a "tool".

Additionally many of these "high ownership, barely any shootings" countries put in place peer control by demanding that gun owners actually state a reason for wanting to own a gun. This entails either regular participation in organized shooting sports or in actual hunting clubs.

Nobody there gets a gun "just because" as getting a legal permit entails quite a bit of work, effort, and responsibility on the side of the applicant. Which is the exact opposite sentiment of that present in the US.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/18...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#575

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #562

scarface74 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think probably the most effective way to solve the problem would be to make people better aware of what makes you appear threatening and non-threatening in a confrontation. Unfortunately in America, what makes you seem threatening is based on the color of your skin. I am an African American living in a predominantly White county in the south that was made famous 30 years ago nationally for being anti-minority. Whil…

> and his friendship circle is like the cast of a WB show. You got me LOLing with that one.

I wish I could take credit for it, but it was a messed up quote from the first Supergirl/Flash crossover.

Cat = Calista Flockhart playing Cat Grant. Cat: All four of you standing there doing nothing. You look like the attractive yet non-threatening, racially diverse cast of a CW show. Who are you?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#576

Post by anigbrowl » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

guiambros wrote: post #359

Malician wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the root cause. The root cause is that if the police show up they might open fire and kill someone. There are always going to be reasons for the police (or SWAT) to show up, especially with the war on drugs. And with the current environment, that means people dying. Of course, since most of the time it wasn't a SWAT call, and the person in question probably did have drugs, it's easier to totally blame the…

> The root cause is that if the police show up they might open fire and kill someone. So how do you reduce the number of times the police shows up randomly at your doorstep? Four hundred times per year, more precisely? That's the definition of "root cause". I get it, this is HN after all, and most here feel outraged by police brutality, particularly in the US - myself included. But instead of putting the blame on pol…

Why do you think blame has to be singular? both the Swatter and the officer who fired can be criminally liable. You can't 'pay' for something like this because you can't buy someone's life back after they're dead. You can make the Swatter suffer as a disincentive to others, but that won't eliminate the behavior any more than harsh penalties for other crimes can be shown to substantially lower crime. Many countries have far less severe penal regimens than the US and also lower levels of crime.

Swatting is easier and more popular in the US because police in this country are much more willing to rush into things.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#577

Post by m55au » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:04 AM UTC

ryanlol wrote: post #516

qw wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number from Norway is from a single mass shooting in 2011 where a man shot children trapped on an island. There have never been anything like that before or later. He killed more people than the total number of murder victims in an average year.

I'm well aware, but they still don't make sense in the context unless this is supposed to be a cherry picked list of worst years for each country. I'm still not sure which events the Finland one refers to.

It lists the mass shootings between 2000 and 2014. Take a look at https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/05/obama-gun-co... for more information.

The Finland events are obviously Jokela and Kauhajoki.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#578

Post by thro1237 » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

throwaway7312 wrote: post #278

cortesoft wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know what is different but we refuse to address it. I understand that many people feel the second amendment is very important, but we at least have to have the intellectual honesty to admit that shootings like this are a consequence of it. We might decide we are willing, as a society, to accept that risk, but we can’t pretend it isn’t there.

Do we know what it is? You seem quite confident. Americans have 101 guns per 100 citizens. Finns have 34.2 guns per 100 citizens. Icelanders have 30.3 guns per 100 citizens. America has 110x the murder rate than Finland has. America has 13,000x the murder rate Iceland has. Whatever the cause is, 3x the guns ≠ 110x the murder rate (or 13,000x the murder rate). A more interesting comparison might be to examine countrie…

Here is how you can get a gun in the Iceland[1]: " all automatic and semi-automatic rifles and most handguns are banned for public use in Iceland.

People who hold a gun license can buy semi-automatic shotguns, bolt-action rifles, single-shot rifles and double-barrel rifles to hunt with but all rifles over 8 millimeters in caliber are banned in Iceland, although with a special permit to hunt large animals abroad, such as elephants or African cape buffalos.

It is also possible to obtain a special collector’s license for handguns and sports associations practicing marksmanship can apply for a license to use small indoor 22 caliber handguns as used in the Olympics.

To obtain a gun license people must attend a course and pass a test at the police station. They also have to pass a medical examination where they are specifically asked about their mental health. The gun license is issued by the respective District Commissioner."

Legal firearms in Finland must be registered and licensed on a per-gun basis[2]

Do you the see the problem? In the US, the second amendment makes it extremely hard to make sure that bad actors (a small percentage of the population) don't get a gun. In the countries you mentioned, they have an effective of preventing this from happening.

[1]http://icelandreview.com/stuff/ask-ir/2011/02/10/what-kind-g... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Finland

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#579

Post by freedomben » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:07 AM UTC

znfi wrote: post #197

One thing with all of this which puzzles me as a non-American, how does the "acceptance" of people getting killed by the police fit together with the whole anti-gorvernment thing which seems fairly common in the US as well? One would think that if one does not like the government, one would be extremely upset about the gouvernment randomly killing people. But for some reason this does not seem to be the case. I guess…

I have long pondered this also. I don't have a great answer for you, sadly. I have come to decide that there are many factors involved:

1. People want to feel safe, and for a long time (and still in many small towns) police were/are viewed as protectors and people that will help you when you've been wronged by another. Because of this they are willing to give benefit of the doubt, even when it isn't justified. I've seen some of these people starting to come around actually, especially after that nurse at the hospital in Utah.

2. Many people aren't actually all that anti-government. I've come to believe that only about 10% of the population here actually is. A surprising number of people vote for and continue to vote for politicians that just continue to grow the size and power of government. They support government control over things as long as it doesn't affect them. They also like to stick their nose in other's business, and then using the government to force that person to live the way they think they should.

Those are some random thoughts, and could be completely wrong, so take with a heap of salt :-)

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#580

Post by scarface74 » Sun, Dec 31, 2017, 2:08 AM UTC

Dove wrote: post #560

scarface74 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think probably the most effective way to solve the problem would be to make people better aware of what makes you appear threatening and non-threatening in a confrontation. Unfortunately in America, what makes you seem threatening is based on the color of your skin. I am an African American living in a predominantly White county in the south that was made famous 30 years ago nationally for being anti-minority. Whil…

That's very fair. Unfortunately, being a big black dude is a great way to look threatening, which does suck. As a point of encouragement, though, it is worth noting that in spite of the national news, encounters with police are really rare, and deadly encounters super rare. Many officers go an entire career without ever firing their gun at anyone - it's just very rare. Your staircase is way more likely to kill you. I…

I agree completely, and I have had nothing but pleasant encounters with the police. Even when I was pulled over going 25 miles over the speed limit in Mississippi and I didn't have proof of insurance and had an out of state license.

He gave me two tickets - one for speeding and one for no insurance. I paid the speeding ticket by phone when I got home and faxed them my insurance card and they dropped the other one.

I can't walk around with a chip on my shoulder expecting the worse out of people when I live in a county where when I show up to my sons school for the first time they immediately know who my stepson is even though we look nothing alike.

But I still tell my son if he's stopped put both hands on the top of the steering wheel, make no sudden movements and always tell the policeman what he is about to do - if he is reaching to grab his wallet, etc. if it's night, turn the inside lights on in the car before he stops and if he is wearing a hoodie because it's cold, take it off.