LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#81

Post by protomyth » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

> Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice

Actually, they don't spend a lot of time doing gun practice which is a problem. Police firearms training budgets are lacking in most states. They also don't do a lot (if at all) training to deal with dogs unless their has been public outrage. A growing separation from the community they police is also a factor.

SWAT is a whole different problem. The overuse of SWAT to do the simple things like serve warrants and the whole war on drugs has been a disaster. Its isn't the populace with guns, its the lack of real training, a cover everyone's butt attitude, and a percentage of people on a power trip. Look at the incident with the nurse in Utah. No guns just CYA[1].

1) http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/05/health/nurse-arrested-police-p...

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#82

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #70

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

> the best way to avoid misunderstandings and snap reactions is to move slowly and deliberately in any confrontation.

Excellent idea. Let's train/condition 300 million people exactly how they should behave in stressful and life-threatening situations, and put at least part of the blame on them for any deviation from "acceptable" behaviour when put in an unknown situations with guns pointing at them.

It would take far too much time and effort to modify police training and expectations.

Perhaps we should cut funding for some more arts and phys-ed programs in public schools, and start funding "police/violence readiness prep" classes in K-12.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#83

Post by mmmBacon » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

v64 wrote: post #35

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough port…

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we have today. Citizens are not enemies or combatants and as such the military style training of police in the US today is wholly inappropriate.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#84

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:55 PM UTC

glenstein wrote: post #48

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

To your point about non-lethal weapons: it seems to me that we haven't yet claimed the low-hanging fruit in the US when it comes to this problem. Why not indulge the most base impulses of both silicon valley and police militarization with high tech, non lethal weapons? It will probably introduce new problems, such as even more unnecessary use of force. It addresses absolutely none of the cultural or institutional pro…

"Why not indulge the most base impulses of both silicon valley and police militarization with high tech, non lethal weapons?"

You're leaving witnesses and complicating any potential legal cases in the aftermath.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#85

Post by Miner49er » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:56 PM UTC

gort wrote: post #59

Since we're mostly debating the police action here, there's a short video available now of the fatal moment: http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article192244734.html The victim really does make a fairly unfortunate movement right before he's shot. Still I'm hardly in a position to say how far this mitigates the shooter.

The only thing the man could've pulled was a pistol from his waistband. The police were across the streets behind cars already aiming guns at the guy. They should be trained to wait until the person actually raises the pistol to fire before discharging. At that distance and with the cover they had I don't see how the guy could fire a shot and hit a cop before they could. I don't see how anyone can argue the cop was in any danger even if the guy had a pistol. Unfortunately, the cop only has to say he felt threatened and he thought the guy had a gun and he'll get off on any charges.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#86

Post by DanBC » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 5:58 PM UTC

Dove wrote: post #70

lb1lf wrote: post #18

Coming from a country where the police spends more time developing people skills than doing gun practice, it never ceases to puzzle me how the solution to any situation appears to be to shoot anything that moves on the flimsiest of assumptions, then figure out what happened afterwards. Now, I appreciate that the police in the US does face a population with more guns on hand than the Norwegian police does; this surely…

I don't think it's reasonable or effective to entirely expect police to solve this problem. Here is the account from the article: Livingston said when the door opened, officers gave Finch commands to put his hands up and walk toward them. He complied for a "very short time" and put his hands back down. He raised them again, and then lowered them for a second time, Livingston said. "The male then turned towards the of…

Please don't use spaces to quote long lines. It's unreadable on mobile.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#87

Post by analog31 » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

dopamean wrote: post #46

tuna-piano wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a side note, because you’re from Norway, that may be surprising to some. The US is #1 with 1.01 guns per capita, and Norway is #9 with .31 guns per capita. In any case, i don’t think the number of guns per capita explains the difference in gun crime rates between the two. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per...

You're absolutely right. The difference is that we are a more violent society. Violence is something we value here. Just look at entertainment for children. You're way more likely to find parents more amenable to letting their children watch scenes of people being hurt than people making love. One gets a pass and the other is considered obscene.

Indeed, I was at an activity with my son, and there was a TV in the lounge, showing a cartoon program. The program involved an evil scheming person trying to take over the world, and culminated in a literal war, with cartoon soldiers, guns, tanks, and so forth, killing one another.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#88

Post by Miner49er » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

clarkevans wrote: post #45

"When confronted by a police officer, you must keep your hands up or on the drivers wheel at all times." This seems to be the new reflex we must learn and practice? Perhaps the rule should be codified so that officers know they can't ask you to do anything else with your hands. People have been shot while complying with a request, ie, getting car registration from the glove compartment or moving closer to the officer…

This is actually a conversation many parents have with their kids. They teach to always be polite to police, no matter what they are saying to you, and to always, always, make sure they can see your hands.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#89

Post by api » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:00 PM UTC

mmmBacon wrote: post #83

v64 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So - the demonstrations following some police shootings aside, is there any significant push in the US to drive the police towards less lethal encounters with the public it is to serve and protect? I'm from the southern US, which is historically more conservative than the rest of the country. I'm not in any way claiming that the following viewpoints are universal and accepted in this region, but a large enough port…

Sorry but almost all the blame is on the person who pulls the trigger. Swatting is possible because of police militarization. Frankly while the idiot who made the call certainly shares some responsibility, our police policies of shoot first and ask questions later are the problem. When police are trained to respond to citizens, even violent ones, like enemies in war, we get the outcomes of police killings that we hav…

The blame can be placed on both. The person who faked a police report is guilty of homicide, but this was made possible by an overly trigger happy police force.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#90

Post by mmjaa » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 6:02 PM UTC

At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'?

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but there has to be real moment of respect for the fact that Americans are living in a "dial-a-death" state of existence.

This is something that many, many social commentators have warned us of, over the decades: the signs of a Police State.

Sure, American. Most likely you are aware of the nature of law enforcement.

But for those of us observing things from places where such actions as this are a real, honest, facet of the past history: this shit is scary.

Like, come on. A rational society allows this?

Please fork, reboot, and continuously deploy these notions of freedom under the protection of violent force. This is a paradox which is delivering injustice, broad and wide, instead of narrow and thin. A moment of disgrace.