LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police • Hacker News Board

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#481

Post by doktrin » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #189

dboreham wrote: post #123

I don't see anyone here asking this: how many people are police killing who are not 100% innocent bystanders like in this case, but still didn't need to be killed? I mean, we're all outraged because they shot "some dude in his PJs" but doesn't that imply they must be shooting 10, 100x as many folks where we'd be thinking "well, he shouldn't have had a knife in his hand" or "he shouldn't have been high"? Where I live,…

> "well, he shouldn't have had a knife in his hand" Right. German cops, for example, are trained to shoot people in the leg in that scenario. It happens quite frequently and successfully. American cops seem like they're all on a hair trigger to kill at the slightest hint of danger, rather than as a last resort when they're truly threatened.

As others have said, police in the US are trained to shoot for center mass, and even then they don't have a great track record for accuracy. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but the book 'On Combat' describes several cases where police empty their clips and mainly hit air. Adrenaline is a bitch, but most cops also have (in)famously little actual weapons training and a more robust regimen would undoubtedly help - including but not limited to helping them not discharge their weapons in the first place.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:23 PM UTC

contravariant wrote: post #58

sumeno wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) Anyone implying that the police need to change is labeled anti police by a large portion of the population because this has become a political issue in the US and given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people.

>given the current political climate of identity politics there is really no reasoning with those people. Can I just point out the irony of saying there's no reasoning with 'those people' because of identity politics.

Actually no, because 'those people' are the set of 'people who have chosen to label others as anti police' and a singular opinion isn't the same as a collective identity.

Admittedly people who hold that opinion might adhere to a 'conservative identity' but the gp was specifically describing people who engaged in categorical dismissal of of political proposal, so it's legitimate to say they can't be reasoned with because categorical dismissals are an example of a genetic fallacy.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by mastax » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:24 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #336

ivanhoe wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

Hate to break it to you, but America IS a macho, gun-loving, power-tripping culture. What macho, gun-loving, power-tripping game were two man-children playing that got one of them so pissed at the other that he SWATted him?

The victim was an unrelated third party.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by dba7dba » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:29 PM UTC

fredophile wrote: post #455

dba7dba wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A soldier is in direct danger of losing life/limb only upto 25 years old so. As you go up higher in rank, your exposure to danger goes down exponentially. And that is usually when an active war is going on. Even when an active war is on, those in charge have learned to limit the length of time a soldier spends in warzone to 1 year. Like US did in Vietnam war. For cop in certain areas, they are exposed to loving life/…

I don't think you've ever been a soldier. Sure the average private or corporal is in their twenties but when I was in Afghanistan the average NCO was in their thirties. Even higher ranked people with office jobs weren't immune from danger. Rocket attacks on KAF and the FOBs was a regular occurrence. Soldiers can easily get a lot more than one year of combat time. How many full time soldiers only do a single tour in I…

No I've never been a soldier but I know a USAF graduate who spent I think 6 month long tour in Iraq. And he did mention being in mortar attack a few times. But it didn't last years. And I agree with what you said about even older/higher ranked people being in danger. But the point is how long has war been going on? And how many of US soldiers are actually in combat zone.

But for US cops, any chance encounter on the street can be deadly. And that lasts for their entire career.

I have trouble with agreeing with someone who says that a cop should be ready to give up life during their whole career of 30 + years.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by u801e » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

ivanhoe wrote: post #175

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #100

What bothers me about these situations is just the entire idea of "SWAT" as practiced. You are a cop with 5+ other cops. You all pull your guns. Someone comes to the door, groggy in the middle of the night. They may or may not understand you are police. They may or may not believe you are the police. They are definitely confused/frightened/angry by your presence. We now begin the dice rolling process. Since every pol…

They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario. Problem is that they typically lack the proper training and the discipline required, and act too hastily. There's also a huge problem with the whole that macho, gun loving, power-tripping culture, it just makes things worse, wrong profile of people gets that kind of job.

> They have to approach the situation prepared for the worst case scenario.

That's not a true premise in the vast majority of cases that involve SWAT raids.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:34 PM UTC

Pica_soO wrote: post #390

millzlane wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, this happens often in my neighborhood where people wear pants too big for their waists with no belts.

Oh, yeah, thats definitely not racism right there, blaming hip hop fashion for a shooting percentage. Carry on.

[deleted]

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by briandear » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:35 PM UTC

CalChris wrote: post #141

meri_dian wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWAT is usually only involved when it's clear there is an immediate and present danger. So of course they are going to be ready with weapons drawn. Do you want them to just waltz into (probably) dangerous situations with their hands in their pockets whistling a tune? Edit: The amount of willful ignorance displayed on HN regarding law enforcement is staggering. It's sad to see how many people here view police as the b…

In this case there was no immediate and present danger yet SWAT was called in. There was a report which turned out to be false. The SWAT team also was under no danger when they shot this guy. I should add that being a police officer is not a particularly dangerous job. A telephone lineman has a dangerous job. A garbage man has a dangerous job. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

I am going to strongly disagree. Being a cop is extremely dangerous — just because more cops don’t get hurt doesn’t mean it’s less dangerous. We can probably agree that being a race car driver is dangerous despite there not being a large number of injuries. Training and equipment mitigate some of the effects of the danger — but that doesn’t make it less dangerous.

Spend a night doing a police ride along in a major city, then report back on just how “not dangerous” the job is.

To be clear, I am not defending the cops in this situation, merely disputing the ridiculous claim that being a cop isn’t particularly dangerous.

How many garbage men have been killed on the job by their customers or targeted specifically because of their job? Any snipers taking out garbage men? Any garbage men getting routinely assaulted on the job?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Post by dba7dba » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:36 PM UTC

MaxfordAndSons wrote: post #402

bitwize wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as people slag off the "thin blue line" mentality it does mean something. You put that uniform on and you are the meat-shield between order and chaos, between civilization and lawlessness. You're performing a grim but necessary service , and there's no shame in retiring to civilian life if you can't or won't accept this duty. This is why soldiers are taught that they are outranked by any civilian. Every offic…

The one time I was arrested (for illegal use of a roadway during a protest), during the post arrest search of my belongings, the cop searching made some comment about something in my bag and I turned my head (I was facing a wall) to reply, for which he immediately shoved my face back into the wall and said "You're not allowed to move - my safety is more important than yours". Keep in mind, this is in a police station…

Look up a Youtube channel called PoliceActivity.

It is a collection of dashcam/bodycam videos of US police involved in some kind of shooting/assault. They are not edited down to fit a news report so videos usually last 10-30 minutes. Some show cops stealing money/drug from suspects and US media actually showed such clips in news reports. But lots of the videos show actual circumstances leading up to shooting by police. Some clips show cops getting shot at by suspects. And even some getting killed. I have a whole new perspective on cops after watching the videos.

I have a relative who was arrested (due to his own fault) and got roughed up by police and he HATES cops. And I kinda used to shared his sentiment.

But after watching the clips on the channel, I feel somewhat less animosity.

When scums of earth are around, most of us have a choice of moving away. But these cops don't have the choice.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#489

Post by paulcole » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:37 PM UTC

mmjaa wrote: post #90

At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'? I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but there has to be real moment of respect for the fact that Americans are living in a "dial-a-death" state of existence. This is something that many, many social commentators have warned us of, over the decades: the signs of a Police State. S…

>At what point does the average citizen look at "SWAT death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'?

The same way we get into cars and say,

>death as an option for what could happen to me today" and think, 'well .. this is okay'?

Something like 30x as many people are killed in car accidents as are killed by police. But the average person worries about neither.

Can't worry about everything. Have to get through the day somehow.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#490

Post by tzs » Sat, Dec 30, 2017, 11:38 PM UTC

tomschlick wrote: post #429

r00fus wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police using hollow-points sounds insane.

Hollow points are designed to stay in the person you're shooting and stop the threat without over penetrating and hitting an innocent person behind the target. I understand they sound scary to people not familiar with guns but they are the safest option for everyone else around the person you are shooting. Not using hollow points for defensive/police purposes would be insane.

I know nothing about bullets other than what one might deduce from elementary Newtonian physics, so this may be a stupid question.

To make a bullet not over penetrate you have to make it so all of its energy is spent in the target (or at least so much is spent in the target that if it does go all the way through it does not have enough left to cause serious injury to whatever it hits on the other side).

Hollow points do this by expanding in the target, so that they transfer energy much better than does a regular bullet that enters the target with the same energy.

Would it not be possible instead do design a gun and bullet system that shoots regular bullets, but at lower energy, so they don't need to be as effective at energy transfer as a hollow point in order to stop in the target?

Lower energy would mean either lower velocity, or lower mass, or both. Lower velocity means shorter range. So does lower mass [1]. Thus, lower energy bullets would have reduced range, but I would expect that would be acceptable in almost all police situations.

One drawback I see for lower energy bullets is that bullet resistant material would be more effective, and so in places where criminal wear such things they may need high energy bullets to allow for that (and so need solutions like hollow point to keep them from over penetrating when they use them on someone who is not wearing such material).

[1] because of air resistance. Think of trying to throw a ping pong ball and a steel ball bearing of the same size, at the same velocity...the ball bearing will go much farther.